|Laboratory readings: Wörgl's Stamp Scrip – The Threat of a Good Example?|
16 comments26 Jun 2002 @ 06:16 by maxtobin : Thank you for this sharing
Very interesting, I will study this further, welcome to the network and enjoy the spaces!!
26 Jun 2002 @ 14:31 by scottj : MV = PT?
Some really great stuff here and the links are worth serious study which I hope to find time for soon.
Negative interest rates has got to be the way to go. Interest payments on capital investment sets up something akin to an economic vacuum cleaner which hoovers up value added for the benefit of the owner of the investment capital who need have no input whatsoever into the value adding process. It is the nature of competition in unfree markets to produce ever greater inequality regardless of any "merit" with wealth naturally tending to accumulate where it already exists. With the current interest rate system this creates the mountain of usury that is responsible for nearly all of our problems, denying millions of people the basic means of existence while at the same time furthering the economic and political interests of a handful of disturbed sociopaths.
It seems from what I have read here and elsewhere that a great many people get bogged down in the search for the holy grail of a non money based economy. I can see that the ideal is definitely to move beyond an exchange based system but the fact is we are a very very long way from being able to do that on a global basis. What these experiments seem to be suggesting is that it is perfectly possible to design a money based economy which eliminate the number one problem normally attributed to it, namely accumulation / inequality! This is very important as it points to at least an interim way of dealing with the problem of exchange in a civilised society.
What I keep picking up on at the moment is that we are really living in a period of very rapid breakdown of the current never-enough materialist system and it would not surprise me in the slightest if there was a complete economic meltdown sometime soon (say inside 20 years). If that should occur, utopian dreams of a money free world may not be what we need.
Perhaps the kind of money systems outlined here are?
3 Jul 2002 @ 04:58 by chaiyah : Alternative Currencies
"Ithaca Money," from Ithaca, New York, is the largest "funny money" system in the US at present. It requires a lot of cooperation; and since Ithaca is a University town [Cornell is there], they have made it work. I have been trying to interest my little town in the Alleghenies in something like this; but the people are very set in their ways and individualistic--mostly farmers.
17 Jul 2002 @ 00:09 by alchemist : I appreciate the good feedback
The Ithaca 'Hour' is a good example of a well-functioning complimentary currency, and the amount of time Paul Glover has put into it is probably an important contributing factor.
I live about 30km from an Australian farming town called Casino that reminds me of chaiyah's home town. When I was running the local LETS system based here in Lismore, Casino, which was within the operating area of LETS, always had zero members. I think that all you can do in these situations is to nudge people's attitudes forwards bit by bit. It takes a long time.
25 Aug 2003 @ 12:07 by David B @18.104.22.168 : Evil Exchange Based System?
What other way exists to meet your needs? Please, comment on this. Describe a system by which you meet your needs and wants that eliminates exchange? By this I mean a system under which you acquire food, water, shelter and procreate without exchange. I know there is one, it's called subsitence farming or hunting/gathering.
Money is simply a convenient way to exchange. It is a medium of exchange, it is not a problem. Name a problem with money, and I'll guarantee you that it goes back to the monopolistic control of governments/states over money. They appropriate this power to themselves via their first monopoly, right of force.
Go look at what the world was like before money existed. Advanced economies were not possible.
Negative interest rates are an unnaturally occuring artifice, they will only confuse investment. What you see in the example is an almost entirely unhampered market economy! That's why it looks so good. The only "tampering" is the "negative interest". But our system already has an equivalent better investment motivation, it's called interest. It's better because it's rate is determined by the market (except for the Federal Reserve and the World Bank) and the rates adjust to ensure that investment meets demand.
Under negative interest if I hold my money, I pay a fee. If someone else is holding it, they pay the fee. I lose less by lending! OR I MAKE THE AMOUNT OF MONEY I WOULD HAVE PAID IN NEGATIVE INTEREST FEES! The last two statements are equivalent.
Meanwhile, with positive interest, if I earn interest when I lend money, I make money by investing it. I give someone the money and they pay me a fee! If I held the money and didn't invest it (hoarding) I would lose money RELATIVE TO THE MONEY I COULD MAKE BY INVESTING IT!
Please notice that the two situations are identical, EXCEPT THAT IN THE LATTER MARKET FORCES DICTATE THE RATE OF INTEREST. The rate of interest adjusts to the rate necessary to balance supply and demand of money in the capital investment market! In the negative interest example, an arbitrary burden has been placed on money, people have an additional factor that must be computed in their transactions. They move money faster, because it's dwindling away, not because they used it to acquire goods they needed. Making people lend money doesn't help them, whoever is stuck holding the constantly depreciating bills is screwed. So someone has to eat that loss. That loss comes out of hte entreprenuer's pocket. It would thus have the necessary effect of reducing the number of person's willing to borrow this depreciating currency.
Though the system did well, it would have done better without the negative interest. The real positive effects were definitely caused by the unhampered nature of that market economy, not by the negative interest.
What we need is to go back to the gold standard and get rid of government money regulations, like the Federal Reserve in the US. Let banks compete to provide reserve notes (currency), make every piece of paper money be backed by a guarantee of gold. This would eliminate artificial inflation, and the boom bust business cycle.
6 Dec 2004 @ 20:08 by Joe Kelley @22.214.171.124 : Free Market
Please look here:
Above is another example of what can happen in a society that manages to avoid forced exchange mediums.
To declare that negative interest or interest earning mediums of exchange do not or cannot work may certainly be true for some yet is obviously not true for others.
Control of the medium exchange as a forced, unnatural monopoly does not appear to be the case in the examples sited here:
Those examples suggest a free market utilizing exchange mediums in the absence of unnatural forces or dictatorial controls. Some of those examples ended at the point of a bayonet.
The exchange medium utilized by greedy, violent, and deceitful people is going to lend itself well to these personality traits. Equitable commerce is something else entirely and can take on many forms, perhaps as many different forms as there are people willing, on their own accord, to imagine, construct, incorporate, and utilize new and better forms of exchange. This is the power locked in the free market that requires a lessening of the involuntary controls currently in force in order to be released. Competition for the best form of exchange will lead the way toward the best form of exchange. Forced compliance toward any specific exchange medium impedes the free market and peoples natural tendency to improve.
If negative interest money is a useful tool for improving commerce as the examples suggest then it can be useful now as long as people are at liberty.
14 Dec 2004 @ 23:47 by Tyler Jordan @126.96.36.199 : alternative currencies
This is certainly the best system I've seen thus far for an alternative currency system. The flaw, as usual, isn't so much the system itself, it's the fact that the PTB will fight it tooth and nail and they have the brainwashed masses behind them. Ultimately, it is an information war, and they have all the major outlets. So I question not this system, but how things can ever change when those in power, the PTB, have no incentive to change things? It is my considered opinion that if we really want to change things, we must apply our creativity and find an incentive for the PTB. If they see a juicy enough carrot, everything will change. They are called the PTB simply because they have the power - control over the global mass of labor via their information outlets. If we can find a good carrot they will use their power to grab it and the rest will follow.
Tyler Jordan, webmaster and author www.earthsociety.org
22 Jul 2006 @ 01:33 by penty @188.8.131.52 : negative cash over time.
We already have a system like this just with different names.
Negative interest for holding money is called inflation, every month your money is worth a little less becasue of it, just like the system above.
4 Oct 2008 @ 18:40 by Joshua Zeidner @184.108.40.206 : article on local currencies
I wrote a fairly popular article on local currencies:
4 Oct 2008 @ 19:30 by hp @220.127.116.11 : Beyond Woergel
Have a look at Zeitgeist - Addendum! See you at TheVenusProject.com
4 Oct 2008 @ 22:40 by George @18.104.22.168 : The liberty dollar was started some time
The liberty dollar was started some time ago in the USA as a metal based currency.
It is widely accepted by businesses in some areas of the country.
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29 Apr 2010 @ 05:51 by Ultrawoman @126.96.36.199 : Resource Based Economy
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