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Our Mad Mad World: Is This the Way Out of Iraq? |
Category: Opinions 10 comments
21 Oct 2004 @ 19:41 by Quinty @68.226.90.181 : Postscript 21 Oct 2004 @ 20:12 by b : Germany and France are no longer allies of USA. The UN is dominated by the 56 member Muslim conference nations. It is no place for USA to plead to. The UN SecGen is totally corrupt and against the USA. The plan put forth by President Bush to hold elections AND build up Iraqi security forces is the way for Iraq to become a sovereign nation again. The US forces and its coalition of the willing will leave when an Iraqi government can take care of its security to secure Iraq for Iraqis. The war with the IslamoFascists will go on. Kerry betrayed the U.S. military before. It stands to reason that he will do it again. Nice art Quinty. 22 Oct 2004 @ 19:29 by vaxen : Germany and France... know what lies behind the facade of do gooderism the Americo-Fascisti are harping to the world at large. The opium and heroine coming out of Afghanistan, again, justify the wholesale slaughter going on in Iraq. Has nothing whatsoever to do with 'democracy!' That oft touted 'demon circuit' of lies, deceit, and rumour. Democracy IS the next stage after communism! Democracy IS socialism! Democracies 'END' is in sight! America IS a Republic ("If you can keep it."--Ben Franklin) When the troups start 'fragging' the insane 'leaders' of this unjust 'war' then the troups will be brought home. Fully diseased and fully unprepared for the next stage of the Global Enslavers takeover. Global Enslaver agents like B, as an example, would have you believe that the Iraquis are incapable of Governing themselves and that Islam is the root cause of all evil. Think about it. Take a real good look at who has been casuing all the 'terror' in the world for the past 100 years. Do'nt settle for the lies of political jingoists for the real, hardcore, truth is out there. It is'nt pretty and it is'nt Republico-Democrati nor Americo-Fascisti either! But this country, and its people, the Good Old USA, is responsible for heinous crimes beyond mention! Germany and France have always been our allies and always will be. Facade is just that and Emperor Bush is not wearing any cloths nor is his purported nemesis either! Two sides of the same Russel Trust Association company. Who cares? Dig in and shoot everything that moves! 22 Oct 2004 @ 23:05 by Quinty @68.226.90.181 : Hey B I hope you're right - I really do - and that I'm wrong, and that within a short time (Kerry has come up with 4 or 5 year timespans too. Bush wants war with all the costs that means) democracy and human dignity will be established in Iraq. But if the majority of Iraqi people desire an Islamic state, or one which does not abide with US interests or reflects our ideals of free market capitalism and democracy, would you go along with that? After all, in a democracy, the people can choose the overal social system they desire, can't they? Even if it's not supportive of the US? Even if we don't like it? 29 Oct 2004 @ 06:21 by b : Quinty I would like to see a government of Iraq for Iraqi's. A political entity that exercised Iraqi sovereignty. A government that could preserve the peace and secure the prosperity of Iraq people for Iraqi's. A government that functions economicaly, politicaly, that is not dominated by a religion or sect of religion. I hope they pick that. In order for that to work there has to be debt resolution, internal and border police, technology functions so the lights stay on and the garbage picked up, the phones working. I would be against domination of Iraq by a religious or military leader with no fixed term of service who would be hostile to USA. It is difficult in Islam to have a different economic system other then Halaba banking. I would like to see that resolved with global economic systems. And eduction beyond only teaching that one book the Koran is the only educaton essential needed for a lifetime. Most of all I hope that it is their choice. The sooner they get it together, the sooner the yankees go home. If they don't get it together and USA goes home then there will be civil war. The poor people then won't have any chance at all. They have a chance now to decide and act for themselves as a people. 29 Oct 2004 @ 19:03 by Quinty @68.226.90.181 : B - I hope you're right - Though I don't think the Americans know what kind of government the Iraqis want or truly care. If Kerry is elected he has promised to remove the 14 permanent military bases Bush is constructing. That would be, at least, a beginning. The US is seen as an occupier, not as a liberator. For any kind of success in this American fingerprints have to be removed. Nor can the US dictate what kind of government the Iraqis choose. That wouldn't be democracy, would it? But we're in a quagmire, one which could have been avoided. And I see no easy solution to this mess. (Thank you George Bush, for bringing it to us.) 6 Nov 2004 @ 19:15 by Quinty @68.226.90.181 : If you're not worried yet then read this. Frank Gaffney is a leading Neocon, and this appeared in the National Review Online 21 Mar 2005 @ 23:06 by astrid : I would like to see a government of Iraq for Iraqis" DOES US of A HAVE A GOV. OF/FOR AMERICANS?????????? So, what makes you think that US GOV by raping , murdering and pillaging (in) Iraq, will CREATE A GOV OF IRAQIS FOR IRAQIS???????? Are you , b, for real???? or are just pulling our leg????? "A political entity that exercised Iraqi sovereignty." WHAT POLITICAL ENTITY EXERCISES YOUR SOVEREIGNTY???? Or maybe you're above all such.... "A government that could preserve the peace and secure the prosperity of Iraq people for Iraqi's." ......n' WHO exactly is doing that for the average Americans ( like yourself?) The Martians??? for it isn't the "Gov-entity" here.... hasn't for the last 150 or so years.... AND WHY DO THINK A COUNTRY PROSPERS WHEN ITS PEOPLE ARE BEING MURDERED AWAY AND WHAT'S NOT MURDERED IS DESTROYED FOR LIFE TIME.HOW WOULD SUCH A TREATMENT OF YOU MAKE YOU PROSPER AND FEEL GOOD????? Perpetual WAR for PERPETUAL PEACE,eh?????? A BAnana Slug has more decency, dignity and INTELLIGENCE in its hindlegs than you have ever nmustered!.... Gaaawd, how frustrating that must be!.... I feel really sorry for you... YOU ARE PATHETIC!!!!... Skip "....so the lights stay on and the garbage picked up, the phones working."..... They were definitely working better before idiots supported by you, b, invaded and started the raping and murder....we're not talking about a thousand or so "rebells" like during Saddam's regime...We're talking BABIES and such in the MILLIONS being murdered etc by their SAVIOUR BABY BUSH!!!.... sent there by YOU, b!I guess you would feel really blessed if the Bush Junta would show up at your doorstep asking to bless your children/grandchildren with some Iraqi treatment. I would be last to deny you such an un-fathomable Blessing! "I would be against domination of Iraq by a religious or military leader with no fixed term of service who would be hostile to USA." Boy, you are sooooo f..... QUTE!!!!!!...that I'M READY TO PUKE!!! Let's just make sure we don't forget in our Evening Prayer to ask for DIVINE JUSTICE to be measured out TO ALL in accordance to what their Actions and Behaviour warrants them!!! (wouldn't like you guys to feel cheated out on the GOOD STUFF.... the stuff BABY BUSH IS SO FULL OF!..) That would include YOU,b, an'BABY BUSH ET.AL... YOu don't mind... a healthy, life affirming CLEAN conscience as you MUST HAVE!..... WHY ARE YOU HERE ON NCN?????????.... I never understood... except as passionate -unpaid Zealot. Just to be able to be here sprading your Light is enough payment,eh? - SELF-APPOINTED GUARDIAN of the MORALE FIBER HERE, EH??? ....or something... Your rhetorics are absolutely INCREDIBLE!... OUT OF THIS WORLD...COULD YOU TELL US A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THAT OUT-OF-THISWORLD -PLACE? MUST BE FAAAAAAABULOUZZzzzzzzzz...?!???.. 15 Jul 2005 @ 19:07 by Quinty @68.226.90.181 : Staying the course 1. Some backers of the war may say, "well, if al Qaeda is attempting to break our will, our resolve, we must stay the course. We can't let the terrorists win!" But if the policy is wrong, if the "course" is wrong, if we have no business being there - none of the rationales for the invasion and occupation proving true - should we continue to lose American lives, billions of dollars, and American prestige in this futile war? The quagmire we are now in? Oh what a fantasy it is to believe that "democracy will bloom from the desert" if we stay the course. And the terrorists will go away. Sure: especially with permanent US military bases there. What are the reasons then to remain in Iraq? Pig headiness? Patriotism? Pride? The inability to admit we were wrong? The humiliation of losing a war? The latest fantasy the Bush administration has offered us? (That democracy will expand throughout the Middle East? Or that most absurd argument that if we dont fight the terrorists there we will have to fight them here?) Welcome to the quagmire! Is national pride, patriotism, and refusing to give up our dream of an Americanized Iraq worth: Two or three American dead a day? Plus many more maimed and wounded? More than a billion dollars a week? The loss of respect of most of the world? Not to mention fanning Arabic hatred and resentment? How many times does it have to be said that our presence in Iraq creates terrorism? That our occupation offers an incentive to terrorist recruits? Is this what we want to continue? And if we stay, whose side will we take in the growing civil war? The Shiite or the Sunni? And what about the recent alliance the Iraqi government made with Iran? Does this indicate a desire on Iraq's part to become a compliant ally of the United States? For if they truly have a democracy they can go whichever way they want, right? They are free to choose. Or is it a Pax Americana we are actually attempting impose? And then there are the permanent military base. We rarely hear about them. Did the Bush administration ever intend to leave? I think not. They just didn't expect the current quagmire? They lived in never never land. And now they are attempting to lie their way out of their follies and mistakes, hoping for the best. No. To use a vulgar phrase, this is just throwing good money after bad money. It is foolish to remain out of pig headiness, pride, patriotism, an inability to admit you were wrong. Or because you can't accept that your policies (GWB, the neocons, the lockstep Republicans) have lead to a bloody and useless military fiasco. Yes, we are in a quagmire. I don't know what the best answer is, or even if there is any good solution. I do know that we can not continue the same. 2. And what about allowing terrorists to enjoy their successes? Here is an argument I recently read which sums it up. Most nations have a policy of not giving in to terrorist demands just as most cities do not capitulate to the demands of hostage takers. It does tend to encourage that action each time you give in." Spain is often brought up as the no 1 example of this. But why should Spain have stayed? A vast majority of Spaniards opposed the war? Why follow the baton major in chief (GWB) when he's leading everyone off a cliff? Continuing a mistake does not make it right. Many of the so-called "coalition of the willing" countries are quitting. Why? For the simple reason that they do not believe in wasting their resources, political capital, and the lives of their young. "Giving in" certainly does encourage terrorists. And Al Qaeda must gloat over their vicious victories. But once again we must ask ourselves: is maintaining face, our national pride, waving the flag ever more vigorously postponing what may be inevitable (like Vietnam?) worth: Telling mothers and fathers their sons and daughters must die in Iraq? Betraying the faith and confidence young soldiers have in their nation and government? Continuing the horror? The countless mounting dead, both Iraqi and American? Not to mention thousands more maimed and wounded? An entirely new generation of angry, resentful, disillusioned veterans suffering a variety of conditions, physical and mental? Well, if you ask me, I say no. it's not worth all that. I don't believe in that kind of national pride. One which sends our young off to the slaughter so that some politicians can jingoistically wave the flag and beat their chests over the "brave sacrifice" of our young troops. After all, they deserve a life too. We may have to face up to our mistake, and swallow our national pride. And admit we were wrong. Even if that allows the terrorists to gloat. 27 Aug 2005 @ 19:34 by Quinty @68.226.90.181 : Dying in vain As our fists become more deeply mired in the Iraqi tar baby the arguments for being there display a continuing imaginative consistency and energy. 1. We are in Iraq because we cant allow the terrorist to win. 2. We are there because if we dont fight them there we will fight them here. It is a war against international terrorism. 3. We are there to spread democracy throughout the Middle East, which, of course, will benefit the world, making it a much safer place. For democracies dont breed terrorism. 4. We are there because we are in a global war with terrorism. And we must fight the terrorists where they are. This is not a matter of choice: but of necessity. 5. We are there because we are good and they are bad. It is a war between good and evil. Americans have always been the spreaders of democracy. Now, a new one - well, perhaps not so new, since its one we heard often when we were in Vietnam - claims that we must continue our noble struggle so that those soldiers who have died will not have died in vain. The following is from Hemingways A Farewell to Arms," a novel about World War One. "I was always embarrassed by the words sacred, glorious, and sacrifice and the expression in vain. We had heard them, sometimes standing in the rain almost out of earshot, so that only the shouted words came through, and had read them, on proclamations that were slapped up by billposters over other proclamations, now for a long time, and I had seen nothing sacred, and the things that were glorious had no glory and the sacrifices were like the stockyards at Chicago if nothing was done with the meat except to bury it. There were many words that you could not stand to hear and finally only the names of places had dignity. Certain numbers were the same way and certain dates and these with the names of the places were all you could say and have them mean anything. Abstract words such as glory, honor, courage, or hallow were obscene besides the concrete names of villages, the numbers of roads, the names of rivers, the numbers of regiments and the dates." So its an old tale. And now we hear from our nations leaders that those who have died should not have died in vain. And what does that mean? That the senseless slaughter needs to continue. That more must die after those who have died to justify their deaths. Each death of a soldier needs the death of another so that he will not have died in vain. So that our soldiers can die with the pride of believing in their mission. When will it all end? For what? John Kerry has said at least one truly decent and memorable thing in his life. Which should be inscribed on the walls of every military school. How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam - How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake? Why then should those soldiers die? To make it easier for grieving relatives to accept a lie? To make it possible for our nations political leaders to sleep easily at night? For if the nation lies with them they may not have to face up to or ever admit their lies. Other entries in Opinions 15 Jul 2008 @ 23:06: Not Peace but Apartheid 24 Mar 2008 @ 20:50: Is it time? 4 Mar 2008 @ 21:24: Writers Take Sides 4 Feb 2008 @ 19:45: Citizen McCain 31 Jan 2008 @ 19:53: The King of Mountebanks? 14 Jan 2008 @ 19:59: "Yes We Can" 21 Nov 2007 @ 23:59: An Easy Solution Missed 6 Oct 2007 @ 20:17: Bringing Back the Fairness Doctrine 12 Jul 2007 @ 23:14: Fighting them there instead of here 6 Jul 2007 @ 23:16: Year One of the Roberts Court
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11 Oct 2004 @ 16:15, by Paul Quintanilla