New Civilization News: Connecting The Dots    
 Connecting The Dots64 comments
picture29 Mar 2004 @ 01:08, by Richard Carlson

Looking for serenity
you have come
to the monastery.

Looking for serenity
I am leaving
the monastery.

---Soen Nakagawa

I want to sing like birds sing
Not worrying who hears or
what they think.

---Jelaluddin Rumi

Vladimir: Did you ever read the Bible?
Estragon: The Bible... (He reflects.) I must have taken a look at it.
Vladimir: Do you remember the Gospels?
Estragon: I remember the maps of the Holy Land. Coloured they were. Very pretty. The Dead Sea was pale blue. The very look of it made me thirsty. That's where we'll go, I used to say, that's where we'll go for our honeymoon. We'll swim. We'll be happy.

---Samuel Beckett

The Prayer , (1907)
patinated bronze

Do you believe that if you do something wrong God will punish you, and that if you're good He will reward you? Do you think if your nation easily takes over an oil-rich country somewhere, it's proof God is on your side? If I envision myself healed and if others gather themselves together to pray for me to be whole and happy, will it happen? I've always wondered about these kinds of things, and lately I've had occasion to try to pull together some conclusions.

I got an email the other day from an Internet friend in Houston. She had forwarded my writing "A Date With Surgery" to a cancer survivor friend of hers. He had written back that my article was an attempt to "justify" my position, and that in his opinion I failed. He said, "Your friend would have to be taught and accept the underlying emotion that is causing his dis-ease. To do that he will have to be receptive. Reading his 'excuses' tells me he has delegated his health to a white jacket and chooses not to accept responsibility for his own health." He said he'd never "go near a doctor with a knife in his hand." This man claims healing is not medical but spiritual, and that is how he accomplished his own.

I'm not sure I believe God works this way. This is not to say if for many years I eat and drink certain things that are not good for me that eventually I will pay the consequences. I'll get diabetes or cancer or just fat...or all 3. It turns out if I laid in the sun for 10 years, sometime later my skin will suffer for it. Those are the results of bad habits, and these days life teaches us that stuff you did long ago turns out to have been bad even though no one thought it was back then. Should I blame God for tricking me? I tend to think these are matters of ignorance and education, of simply learning more about what life is. Perhaps along the way I get pointed toward God, but I don't think the lessons are direct or cause and effect.

Maybe that guy would agree with me about this, or maybe he would say I'm missing the boat. He does say, "Removing the prostate does just that. Remove the prostate. The removal heals nothing!" So what do I have to do to be healed? Do I "get" healing or do I heal myself? Yesterday we had a healing section in our church service. People lined up and went down front to an Episcopal priest and nun, uttered quietly their petitions, and then had the sign of the cross put upon their foreheads in oil and hands laid upon them. My whole family went up there with me and it was a moving experience. I know rituals of this sort happen in many kinds of churches and religions but it was new to me.

As I knelt in prayer afterwards, a feeling came over me that became a thought. It was, "Isn't this an amazing coincidence that my new church would do something like this at the same time that I need it?" At noon a small group of us, mostly people seeking membership at Good Shepherd, met with our priest Michael to discuss further how or at what level each of us wants to come in. Some people want to transfer membership, while others request confirmation or baptism. The Bishop will be here on May 2nd to fulfill our petitions and perform another laying on of hands. I realized then and there that will be one day before I have major surgery. What's going on here?

And not only that, it could be significant that I got a diagnosis that requires important medical decisions during Lent. We're supposed to give up things during Lent, to become spare, to prune the vine for better harvest, to fast and pray. I'm being facetious when I say I'm giving up my prostate gland for Lent. It's coincidence that all of this is happening at the same time as I am studying prayer and am part of a contemplative prayer group at my church. Or is there a design that is the Will of God?

I am very careful when I get information from the cosmos like this. I know people who will rush to say, "Richard, everything happens for a purpose," and as that guy mentions I need to be receptive to it. Is God giving me a message? My humility demands that I assert the church did not set up a healing service for me and the Bishop is not coming to Athens, Ohio, in order to bless my operation. Such grandiosity is madness. For me thinking that way opens up the worst kind of temptation and sin: that I am particularly blessed by God to be doing what I do. It is magical thinking, which I find interesting and valuable at times here on earth, but not in direct communication with God.

So what do I advocate and what is the message for me in these events? For my birthday my family gave me a copy of The Book of Common Prayer. Michael Jupin says for people of our denomination it is as important in our spiritual development as the Bible itself. I've wanted a copy of it for a long time before we found ourselves in an Anglican church. I had read some parts of it somewhere, and the writing had clicked with me. The story of my particular faith seems to be all over the place in it, in prayers and various orders of service. For instance here's a prayer shown to me yesterday on page 341...and that's another thing---it looks as if all versions of it have the same page numbering (but I'm not sure about that): "All glory be to thee, O Lord our God, for that thou didst create heaven and earth, and didst make us in thine own image; and, of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus Christ to take our nature upon him, and to suffer death upon the cross for our redemption. He made there a full and perfect sacrifice for the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy Gospel command us to continue, a personal memory of that his precious death and sacrifice, until his coming again."

Now some of you will not like having read that at all, and I'm not attempting any evangelical stuff on you. What I was trying to show is how compact that article of faith is, and how well written. In those 2 sentences is the whole story. Sometimes the language of these Eucharistic Prayers, as they're called, gets more ornate---as here, we praise the Creator: "At your command all things came to be: the vast expanse of interstellar space, galaxies, suns, the planets in their courses, and this fragile earth, our island home" (p.370). Every week during service we are invited to turn in our prayer books to page 360 for the Confession of Sin. Here we ask God's help to repent, which is like turning our lives around---and I think it's amazing there are 360 degrees in a circle, in which we can become changed through confession. But is that a secret message from God?

What I do with all these questions and searches for answer is carry them around in a prayerful way. Sometimes I sit or kneel with them in prayer itself. It seems to be that prayer is my answer and in it my healing. In the listening part of prayer God speaks. Increasingly prayer is filling my "spare" moments, and hopefully entering more and more my everyday behavior. Last week Michael asked our inquiring membership group if we would try to write a eucharistic prayer of our own...something personal, a way to address God and at the same time attempt to tell the whole story. It was a daunting challenge, but I'll conclude this morning with an answer I came up with~~~

God of all creating and created
what is seen and unseen
what is and is not
God of mind and body
what perceives and is perceived
what is born and what dies,

we have come to know You
each one of us
one at a time,
we have heard of You
from our mothers and our fathers
our brothers and sisters
our friends and neighbors
we have followed our yearning for You
into our religions
into our churches

we share with You
in this congregation
in the blessed sacraments
with which we touch
the Savior, the Christ
whom we believe You sent to us
to show us Your way
to teach us Your love
to love us unto death
and Glorious Resurrection.

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29 Mar 2004 @ 01:31 by vibrani : Okay Jazz
here's the skinny. Everybody has cancer cells. Something triggers them to start growing out of control. I don't believe it's diet.

Taking personal responsibility for your body, let's look at it in a new way. When we have an ailment we have to understand the meaning of the part of the body that is afflicted. The prostate relates to the masculine sexual organs - agreed? Problems with the prostate could have spiritual causes from: mental fears of your masculinity; giving up; sexual pressure and guilt; belief in aging. If you want to get to the source of how the cancer developed in the prostate, think back about your own thoughts about yourself, your beliefs about men, aging, sex, and so on, and how you feel about yourself in the past year or two. Is there an old family story you are telling yourself - something that you have to fulfill, as in a prediction? (Such as "my father had this, and so I am doomed to have it, too.") What do you fear? Where is your blockage, where are you holding energy? You can reach that "ah-ha" moment in which it makes sense for you. Bingo.

Thoughts to change - that you approve of and love your ever-young and powerful self right now. You can come up with your own reasons and thoughts that can be changed. Not saying this is an instant cure-all, but it will guide you into yourself so you can understand yourself and possible reasons why the cancer developed, and ways in which you can help heal it and prevent its return. This is not any judgment at all. It is a means of self-examination and deeper awareness. And rediscover your passions.

*******Additionally - Richard - I hope you do understand that what I've written is about the spiritual/mental/emotional causes of a disease which is then reflected in an organ, or other part of the body. It is not an excuse or anything to blame for having cancer - no way. It is calling attention to the area for your own examination in a spiritual way. Sometimes when we know exactly what thoughts triggered a physical change, we can sometimes reverse or halt it. Sometimes we can't. In any case, it is not to be relied on as a substitute for medical treatment, but to use them in tandem.  

29 Mar 2004 @ 03:48 by jazzolog : Damning Evidence
Maybe God is punishing me for using birth control all these years.

But seriously Nora, it's probably clear that I have not looked into the matters you present here...and I should. And I will. Thank you for taking the bull by the horns, as it were.  

29 Mar 2004 @ 04:43 by jstarrs : As a solitary, meditating...
...yogi, do you need to pass by god concepts?
Whatever gives you comfort, IMHO.  

29 Mar 2004 @ 05:22 by jazzolog : Wild Mountain Monk
Increasingly I am discovering the joy of the sangha, Jeff---or in my case, a congregation, so things aren't as solitary in my spiritual life as previously. Finding a real relationship with God has been a lifelong seeking of mine.  

29 Mar 2004 @ 05:24 by jstarrs : Happy trails, Jazz...

29 Mar 2004 @ 06:41 by spiritseek : We have...
more then a physical body, we need to heal each part.As above so as below. I learned you can't separate God from spirituality, you can't heal the physical without healing the spiritual body.It wouldn't hurt to cover all the bases. God will show you the way to what needs to be done, just be open to hear it when it comes!  

29 Mar 2004 @ 07:22 by dempstress : In with both feet
Hi Richard,

So, I have finally started to find my way around the site and to your logs....what a time to pick!

Plainly people come to NewCiv from a variety of spiritual backgrounds, and I am wary about stepping on them, particularly perhaps as the attitude to religion and particularly christianity is pretty different in USA from in Europe and the UK, which is my background.

In particular I am wary as I get angered by people insisting on 'laying their own' religious or spiritual trip onto someone else. I have had amazing experiences which would I suspect count as spiritual in anyone's books, biut it seems to me that the difficulties can arise when sharing these experiences: words are the only available vehicle, and words were perhaps not devised for such subtle usage. Worst of all is when people take hold of she numinous and twist it through the dimensions of their own logic, or fear or anger, to insist that THIS is what god is, what he/she wants, the way we must behave. Thus tthe spiritual is turned to religion, which can be both powerful and dangerous.

See: probably the last thing you want to hear at a time when the support of your church and pastoralists and fellow congregationalists is so important to you! I have always felt that all religions and spiritual feelings are alternate paths to the same garden....the difficulty is in remembering that these paths, although perhaps out of sight, are every bit as real as your own, even if apparently hemmed in by unappealing boggy bits, brambles or even razor-wire. After all, although we may (unless colour blind) agree what is red, or blue or green, we never actually know that we're perceiving the same thing in those colours.

Having had the benefit of a childhood which encompassed Anglicanism, Catholicism, Methodism and the Salvation Army, with a dash of Spiritualism for seasoning, I am generally wary of any religious '-ism', although I recognise the happiness and support they can bring to many others. What I'm trying to say, I suppose, is that it matters not one jot nor tittle what the rest of us think or believe except insofar as we're all wishing you well, that you are happy and content with the decisions you make and that you feel supported by the love and wishes of all these people who so plainly care for you.

And while advice can be welcome, let no-one tell you how how you SHOULD be dealing with the physical or spiritual path you are on. (And that includes me!)



29 Mar 2004 @ 09:15 by jazzolog : Ultimately
spiritseek and dempstress offer wise counsel in asserting the individuality of religious experience and the readiness for revelation. That last breath is taken alone. Nevertheless I am grateful for what people have to say and to tell me. I expect much independent thinking among the membership of NCN, but I didn't think it would hurt if I lay down my particular brand currently.

I am delighted to read dempstress' comment and to see her find her way to the Logs. Many of us have spoken before about certain difficulties in discovering the here's and there's of the site. Some of you have met her already, but as you can see she can write up a storm. Now the challenge is to get her to start up her own Log. :-)  

29 Mar 2004 @ 09:57 by skookum : I think
we punish ourselves for our own imagined transgressions. We are our own manifestations of grief, self hate .. whatever. I can attest to that as I am an example of that very erroneous thinking.
Perhaps...the greatest thing we need to learn here is to forgive ourselves for being who we are. We are raised with all these should-haves and should-have-nots. To learn to really love ourselves as we allow ourselves to love others. I cannot seem to do this yet. Perhaps, my own healing will progress further in that case. Heal the heart, heal the spirit, heal the body.  

29 Mar 2004 @ 12:35 by martha : Richard
I have a great deal to add on this subject and will add more later in this comment. There is much that has not been talked about so I guess now is the time...I have been holding out on you...hahahaha...will need to write it up first to check my spelling and at the moment I am pressed for time but am very concerned about what has transpired here...  

29 Mar 2004 @ 15:36 by magical_melody : Distinction: Not all about you, All 4 U!
Richard, I believe that Ninharsag expressed so well above the mental, spiritual and emotional contributors to disease. I would add that I think diet is indeed a big contributor in the physical health and well-being of the body and that all contribute to the whole complex (body/mind/soul) of the blueprint for Being. IMHO, I feel that your opening to dialogue through this process and your willingness to share as you are is opening you to profound opportunities for healing. When we do this, we open to the richness of community to assist us in identifying beliefs and attitudes which keep alive the pattern of disease. It sounds like a powerful process is unfolding for you. How wonderful!

****Your commenting-paragraph: "I am very careful when I get information from the cosmos like this. I know people who will rush to say, "Richard, everything happens for a purpose," and as that guy mentions I need to be receptive to it. Is God giving me a message? My humility demands that I assert the church did not set up a healing service for me and the Bishop is not coming to Athens, Ohio, in order to bless my operation. Such grandiosity is madness. For me thinking that way opens up the worst kind of temptation and sin: that I am particularly blessed by God to be doing what I do. It is magical thinking, which I find interesting and valuable at times here on earth, but not in direct communication with God.”

Richard, thinking that it (life) is all about you may be self centered and involves magical thinking at times, however knowing that life is all designed perfectly for you! Ah, now that's awareness! You are your own universe in person, how can it be any different? For each of us, there is a magic that the Creator Source and we set up so perfectly. I call it Divine Magic! All the bounty of this world as it introduces itself to you, is "All for You!" this is true for us all, as we are supported each and every moment with the perfect experiences we need and desire! "It is All for YOU!" Can you accept this? Good on ya for drawing these experiences to yourself! My vision for you this day is that you can more fully open to all the blessings being offered to you, knowing that the Creator in person is presenting them to you. I cheer you on and say, "take em all in!" and rejoice! Keep connecting the dots bro! Peace, Alana  

29 Mar 2004 @ 15:56 by FDJ @ : The New Age
"Your friend would have to be taught and accept the underlying emotion that is causing his dis-ease. To do that he will have to be receptive. Reading his 'excuses' tells me he has delegated his health to a white jacket and chooses not to accept responsibility for his own health."

Oh, wow! No offence to the author of the quote (I recognize behind his words a system of beliefs, some of which are very old, and a well documented spiritual background about which a lot has been written—not to mention, obviously, the author’s own personal experience in the matter—and It would assuredly be inappropriate to make light of such beliefs on the basis of a quote taken out of context and such is not my intent here) and no disrespect to the author of the Blog (I realize of course that the ordeal you are going through is very serious and real life experience—not a movie—my thoughts are with you and I hope you won't think me insensitive to your plight), I couldn't help but be reminded of Michael Tolkin's movie, "The New Age" (that quote could have come straight out from it.) The movie has been described as a comedy but I found it to be an extremely hard movie to watch and I wouldn't recommend it if you are looking for a comedy to cheer you up):

"While many spiritual programs advocate humility, the New Age beliefs of [the protagonists] , the Witners, allow them to star as the objects of their own worship. If you feel right about yourself, if you think positive, if you send out the right aura, then success, of course, will come to you. The catch is that failure and poverty are therefore somehow your own fault, too… {link:|More}

Despite its title the movie is less a satire of the New Age movement than a cautionary tale about the pitfalls of psychobabbles and "quick spiritual fixes" and the kind of "magical thinking" mentioned by Richard (and which sometimes will work—and so do placebos, the mind is an amazing thing—but this is not the point.)

All in all, I agree it is good advice to be cautious with what information we read in tea leaves, what message we think we are being sent by God or the cosmos and what religious or spiritual trip we are tempted to lay onto someone else.

"The reason you keep falling," one spiritual adviser explains to the Witners, in The new Age, "is because there's no bottom." Thanks a whole lot.  

29 Mar 2004 @ 16:04 by FDJ @ : Broken Link fix:
{link:|The New Age}


I always give a little ID if comments are left by nonmember folks whom I know. I don't think I'm acquainted with this person and (s)he certainly is welcome. I hope the discussion continues.


29 Mar 2004 @ 16:28 by vibrani : Which raises some questions
of what is falling? And that there is no bottom does it mean one is doomed to keep falling? Are you actually going anywhere? Why see it as falling, when in fact the "falling" represents the illusions of separation or disconnection one may feel from God/Source. That is the time to say, "Hey, wait a minute, I'm forgetting something."

As to diet, it's good idea to eat healthy, but I know people who were non-smokers, never took drugs or drank, ate well, and still got cancer. I know someone right now who's going through her second bout with cancer and she does everything "right." That's why I feel it's more about the feelings and thoughts we have and where we hold energy. Even when it comes to chemicals - one body might be more susceptible to them than another. Why is it that with twins, for example, one twin will get cancer and the other will not? Remember the term DIS-EASE. What are we not easy with in our own body?

I think the hardest part to explain spiritually is why some people heal and others do not. And does that imply some kind of God-bestowed favoritism, or superiority to other human beings? Nope. This is something I've wrestled with for years and years, and for myself, I know that judgment shouldn't figure into it, and in actuality it doesn't on its own. It does no healthy service to anyone, anyway. We do the best with what we have, and for that we can only feel we give our lives our best shot. We make the choices to seek one kind of treatment or another, to see this doctor instead of that one, to allow a doctor we trust to take charge of us, to reject something or accept it, to keep fighting or to decide it's enough. These are personal choices from which we eventually learn - that's it - we learn. Enjoy the journey.  

29 Mar 2004 @ 22:01 by FDJ @ : Yes - interesting questions
Actually a {link:|study} by Lichtenstein et al, found that the TWIN of a person who had cancer had an increased likelihood of having the same cancer in certain instances. This was noted to be especially true for cancers of the stomach, colon, rectum, lung, breast and prostate. But no argument with your well made points regarding the Mind Body connection here. Thank you for the clarification. YES, there are somatic factors and there is a case to be made for looking at cancer and other diseases as the result of complex interactions between our bodies, our lifestyles, our genetic makeup and our environment. After all, how much cyanide can the body take before the body goes down regardless of whether the mind wants it to or not. History, however, signals to our attention some remarkable exceptions, like Rasputin, who supposedly managed to survive poison by the bucketful and had to be shot down by his assassins (and even then). Don't try it at home though. And YES there are{link:|psychological and emotional factors} involved in both the onset and healing of cancer and other diseases.

Regardless, it still is good advice to be cautious about what message we think we are being sent by the cosmos (Richard’s point) and what religious or spiritual trip we are tempted to lay onto someone else (dempstress’s point, and also the point of the movie I was talking about in my earlier comment.) Judging by your own conclusion, I believe we all more or less agree on that part.  

30 Mar 2004 @ 02:28 by jazzolog : Balance
You have no idea how valuable I am finding this discourse. There are emails happening privately too, some of which I am working to get permission to share here (but that may not happen).

It seems with this particular disease---or whatever it is---all the factors of one's being must be considered in cause and cure. Maybe that is so with everything about health...but cancer seems scarier than most. Now it's present, now it's gone. Now it's here, now it's there. The thing is a demon of some kind, a satanic alter-ego.

I'm looking at myself---and all my character flaws---and yet the looking itself may be tainted. Surely this is why we come to spirituality with such an ailment.

As many of you have commented (some privately) we don't want the punitive God, who gives us cancer because we sinned. But we don't dismiss completely the notion of cause and effect either. Warning: gluttony may cause cancer.

I confess I have yielded to sinful temptation. And I can accept I got cancer as a result---if that's the "bottom" line (hmmmm...). That doesn't mean we have a vengeful God necessarily.

Healing and getting better seems to be built into the creation...if you just can trace the thread and let it into yourself. Or notice that when you cut your finger it gets better. For there to be healing, there is the cutting built into nature too.

It's the old story, all the myths and all the bibles, and all the wonder. I'm still grateful...even when it hurts.  

30 Mar 2004 @ 02:56 by MB Jupin @ : Good News

Your writing is a "testimony" and "witness" and it is very powerful, at least as I read and digest it. I am so moved that tears come to my eyes. You may not read, and surely do not intend, that it is testimony and witness. After all, it is just you being you. But to me that is when, more often than not, our lives display their real power at their best. That is witness and, for many, it will be an "evangel," really Good News...

Thank you so much for these reflections. They obviously touch me because I am privileged to be a part of what you have written. I am privileged and thank you and God for that opportunity.

Every blessing.


30 Mar 2004 @ 07:09 by swan : I couldn't say it better than Nora
and I would echo what Magical Melody says about this dialog opening you to opportunities for healing. In fact healing is happening in ways you don't even know right this moment. I feel that healing can lead to spiritual awakening or being spiritually awake can lead to healing. My first experience with profound healing took place 19 years ago when I came close to death. I was not spiritually awake, but Spirit was touching me just the same and informing me of things I could do that did save my life. In my world view we are always in dialog with our Loving Creator, some times we hear and sometimes we don't. In my case the body part could not be saved but my our spirit was saved in the process and it was the beginning of my awakening. At the time I was in so much pain, on all levels, it would have been an easy choice to leave, but as I look back all of the pain was worth all the learning that the moment created.

We are magnetic beings and we draw experiences to us to evolve. The soul wants us to learn something and it doesn't care what package the experience comes in. We often draw illness as it shakes us to the core and brings to light things we might not have seen any other way. In particular it causes us to see our selves in a new light.

I see you opening to new understandings in yourself, Richard and that is a profound healing in and of itself. You are touching others, and that is a profound healing.

I feel that all the resources we have available are viable options be it prayer, positive affirmations, medicine, herbs because they provide the hope, which provides the positive belief which tells the universe you trust in its perfection and that in turn activates the real healing. How could cancer possibly live in such a loving environment as hope, love and trust ? It can't! IMHO I bless my illness even though it still impacts me 19 years later because it showed me who I truly am and opened me to vast possibilites.

I periodically write a newslog on why I stay a member of NCN. It is for experiences and dialogs like this the create community for me.  

30 Mar 2004 @ 07:57 by martha : common sense richard
Most of the advise you have been given is fine BUT one also needs to use some common sense.This concerned the so called friend that sent you info about some idiot saying they would never go under a about fear projection. I question any friend sending you such nonsense.
What no one is talking about and I believe is the heart of the matter is what you are ready for Jazzy. While it is fine for you to be introspective and nora and others have given you wonderful suggestions that in no way negates the fact that you have to do what is best for you in this moment in time.
Body, mind and spirit healing is not an instant process and for some like myself has taken a number of years to accomplish and is a continual process. While it is easy to say that the Buddha achieved enlightenment over night while meditating, you can bet it took many years of preperation to get to that point. The same with Jesus or John or Lao Tsu. I believe it is the same with healing yourself. You need to dedicate yourself to that process completely and most can't do that in todays world with so many distrations and demands. Of course we all have the power to heal ourselves instantly BUT one needs to walk a path first to get to that place.
I know for my own healing I literally took two years out and dropped out. I was unable to work during this time of my healing but the advantage was there were little demands put on me and those that were by mark fell completely flat. Going through a complete shifting in thinking requires dedication and TIME.
So I caution you to use common sense concerning your body and USE ALL the TOOLS that are available to you.  

30 Mar 2004 @ 08:45 by dempstress : Yo mmborders!
Hurrah...some commonsense indeed. Richard, I'm sure that people are writing because they wish to share their thoughts to help you....and also because this dialogue gives them a platform for their thoughts. I am delighted you say you feel it is all all helpful, but admit I'm concerned about comments from you like 'I confess I have yielded to sinful temptation. And I can accept I got cancer as a result.' This is the sort of guilt trip that I worry is less than helpful....and yet in saying this I am cutting across my own advice that you shouldn't listen to what I or anyone else tells you, but do what seems right for you. Aaaargh tautology! Can't live with it, can't live without it!

All of life is learning, to our last breath and no-doubt beyond (could be a steep and scary learning curve that one!), and times of stress more so than most. And yes, we all have responsibility for many things in our lives, for decisions made and paths not taken..... but learning and being open to ideas must surely be about more than guilt and responsibility. I do not personally hold to a 'god' in terms which would be acceptable to any organised relgion I have come across, but I know I have experienced what I can only call the light. At these times, and more faintly in memory, while personal/individual responsibilty is strengthened the negatives so often associated with it are the point where they seem almost amusing. I suppose that as humans we don't have that level of 'understanding'/'feeling' very often in our everyday lives. Not sure, however, that that makes the negative stuff any more relevant.

Am not going to say any more about what I have learne or felt or taken from these experiences as it would once again hit the tautology barrier....and poor Richard, I worry that every time we log on we just make matters more confusing for you! If so, a good old mental and typed shout of 'Go away all of you and be quiet' would be perfectly acceptable and hopefully theraputic.

All love


30 Mar 2004 @ 09:26 by jazzolog : Blessing
How could I feel anything but rejoicing when such fine folks have done the commenting this morning? O Dempstress I don't mind some guilt. I learn from guilt...and grow. Regret is tougher for me.

And I wish I had more time right at the moment (lunch break) to thank Swan and Martha more extensively. Swan's story is the first entry at her Log, and I recommend getting to that brilliant article if you haven't read it. Martha reminds me that looking at each other as healing and healed is different than we all normally communicate together. Isn't that so? How amazing to perceive each other from this perspective for a change. I like it. You guys are doing me a world of good!  

30 Mar 2004 @ 10:10 by swan : Your welcome my friend.
The article of mine you mention is actually my third experience with facing a challenge with a health crisis and the personal healing that resulted. The crisis that I mentioned above was the first time I experienced anything of this nature and spiritual intervention. When I got sick 19 years ago I intuitively began to do a breathing technique to help me stand the severe pain I was experiencing. I did this for 3 days and I believe it was this breathing that shut down my elimination systems and saved my life. I had a strangulated bowel that was miss diagnosed. If my systems had not shut down I would have lost my life. I believe it was divine intervention that told me exactly what to do to save my life. At the time I was not consciously on a spiritual path. Did I tap in to the collective consciousness medical records, my own inner physician, or God? I don't believe that matters. what matters is that wisdom came when I needed it. In retrospect I realize I was using a breathing technique that yogi's use to shut down thier systems during deep meditation. I say all of this because I believe we are guided in such ways to find what is in our highest and best when it comes to healing. I trust that you know/will know what is best for you Richard because of your openness to explore yourself and other healing methods in concert with what the medical doctors are offering you.  

30 Mar 2004 @ 10:37 by vibrani : Jazz
what Martha, Swan, myself and others have been saying is that changing your perspective about your life is a (sorry it has become such a cliched term) process. It does not happen overnight, takes trial and error, and changes your life. It's not a one-time deal: It's something that continues the rest of your life. The good news is that anyone can start right now.

I'm glad Martha brought up the "going under the knife" comment because I missed that. Sometimes surgery is the best solution, or at least part of it. Anyone who suggests that it should never be considered has their own fear issues about surgery. As Martha suggested, use common sense, Richard, and decide for yourself what YOU want to do, and why. Be very clear for yourself. It will absolutely cause you to look at your religious beliefs in a new way and that may be a little threatening. So you are the only one who knows what is right for yourself. I'm glad you are being helped by what everyone has been contributing here in your log. You are opening up and this vulnerability and caring are big steps towards self-healing.  

30 Mar 2004 @ 10:48 by martha : I learn from guilt
My advice about guilt is to throw it out the window. Guilt is just another form of control used by the old time religions. It is BS. Guilt is EVIL and i will remind you once again that evil is just living life backwards. Guilt does no one any good and causes a great deal of harm. I was raised to feel guilty about everything I did until I finally said NO. And to this day I have a sister that still trys to lay guilt on me until I finally told her to stick it up her ass and sit on it. I think she got the message. Probably made her constipated...LOL

If you have regrets about what you have done in the past then you simply ask for forgiveness knowing you have stumbled and if you can tell the person you are sorry then do it. If you can't then simply send the wish out into the great unkown and it will be recieved in spirit by the other you think you wronged.

Do not burden yourself with such nonsence as guilt for it will make you sicker and will defeat you in the end. Forgiveness and love are the great healing tools of life.

You are the light, you are the way and your spirit will guide you if you allow it. Accept not the judgements from others or the judgement you place upon yourself. You are perfect and have only been taught by false doctrine to think you aren't!

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. -- Charles Darwin

It's hard for me to get used to these changing times. I can remember when the air was clean and sex was dirty. -- George Burns

"The next step is to pay attention to your feelings at a deeper level and to trace back the emotions underlying any maladaptive release. That is how you follow the energy and how you change the outcome. More importantly, it is not just changing the outcome in the living now (which is really good). It is undoing it and wearing it out." --- Patricia Sun  

30 Mar 2004 @ 11:12 by vibrani : Guilt = self-hatred & negation
Toss it in favor of caring for yourself in a positive way. And speaking of tossing - I'm tossing in a few super inspirational quotes for you:

"The evolution of man is the evolution of his consciousness,
and 'consciousness' cannot evolve unconsciously. The evolution
of man is the evolution of his will, and 'will' cannot evolve involuntarily." --- Gurdjieff (1873-1949)

"Self-pity gets you nowhere. One must have the adventurous daring to
accept oneself as a bundle of possibilities and undertake the most
interesting game in the world -- making the most of one's best."
--- Harry Emerson Fosdick

"A pessimist is one who makes difficulties of his opportunities,
and an optimist is one who makes opportunities of his difficulties."
--- Harry S. Truman  

30 Mar 2004 @ 11:19 by martha : And one more thing Richard
Remember how I have been on your case and a few others here at NCN about positive energy. It is true that some people who are positive will get sick. So what. I would much rather live my life with a smile on my face rather then a frown. Your choice.

(yeah nora you tell him!) (no need for self hate...there is enough hate in this world without also hating ourselves...besides that is evil and we all know what that means...)

 "Not till we are lost, in other words, not till we have lost the world, do we begin to find ourselves, and realize where we are and the infinite extent of our relations." --Henry David Thoreau  

30 Mar 2004 @ 13:43 by jazzolog : Keeping A Sense Of Humor About Guilt

Mothers, food, love, and career: the four major guilt groups.
---Cathy Guisewhite

Guilt is the reason they put the articles in Playboy.
---Dennis Miller

And there isn't any way that one can get rid of the guilt of having a nice body by saying that one can serve society with it, because that would end up with oneself as what? There simply doesn't seem to be any moral place for flesh.
---Margaret Drabble

Now, I don't want to get off on a rant here, but guilt is simply God's way of letting you know that you're having too good a time.
---Dennis Miller  

30 Mar 2004 @ 19:10 by vibrani : When
will you begin to meditate, or do you already, Richard? You know the health benefits of meditation - lowers blood pressure, increases endorphins, boosts your immune system, feels really good, gives you personal insights, etc.  

30 Mar 2004 @ 19:47 by martha : Good question Nora
I'll be interested to hear the answer.  

31 Mar 2004 @ 01:58 by jstarrs : Couple of thoughts about...
...guilt & regret.
Guilt, I feel, is carrying baggage that stops one from advancing.
Regret recognizes the (self)fault but allows one to then move on.  

31 Mar 2004 @ 02:14 by vibrani : Regret
I think, might be like self-pity and does not in itself allow one to move on. People tend to get stuck in regret and live in the past. Forgiveness, recognition of an action not preferred to one that would be preferred could be more allowing of moving on and not remaining in "a down on the self" place that regret puts one.  

31 Mar 2004 @ 02:30 by jstarrs : Well, I wasn't thinking of some...
...kind of 'nostaglia' here. More like recognizing an act that's caused oneself or others harm, recognizing it as a negative act (which is the most important thingto purify such an act from the mental continuum)and this allows one to move on. I guess, as usal, it's down to personal interpretation and definition.  

31 Mar 2004 @ 03:00 by jazzolog : Meditation
First, I was thinking of regret more like a huge boulder in the pit of my stomach that just sits there. One can change one's view of it---and of the events and experiences---but the sorry fact is just there, and can't go away. Like my divorce 36 years ago. Guilt provides me with news that I've made a mistake in a relationship, with others or myself, and opens opportunity for apology and growth in a better direction. But I can understand if others have the definitions the other way around.

Second, I was taught meditation formally at Karme Choling Tibetan Buddhist Center in 1975. While I have sat in group with other traditions, I usually find myself using that approach at such times and when alone. These days, however, I am developing a better prayerful approach in my spiritual life.  

31 Mar 2004 @ 08:22 by martha : R-E-G-R-E-T
"but the sorry fact is just there, and can't go away"-- NO NO NO NOT TRUE Jazzy- I don't think you understand...if it is still THERE then you have not moved beyond it. Everything in your life you attract and when you become an adult the idea of "it just being there " will be seen as an illusion. If you regret your past marriage and divorce then you have NOT forgiven yourself. You have not learned.
Good points starry and nora...most important.

  Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your common sense. -- Buddha  

31 Mar 2004 @ 09:09 by swan : What is the gift?
You can move beyond reqret to forgiveness if you can discover the gift being given by the experience. If each experience and our response to it is a blessing created for us to learn and grow from there is no reason to feel guilty or reqret. What did you learn from your past marriage that you wouldn't have learned any other way? What is the gift in your current experience. Ask and you shall receive. In your new prayerful approach to spirituality ask what the gift is, ask what it is you are being shown through the experience and the one you pray to will send you an answer.  

31 Mar 2004 @ 09:25 by jazzolog : *
I don't regret the marriage, but I do regret the mistakes that I made that contributed to it end. I can forgive myself and others have forgiven me...but forgiveness does not make events disappear. I am forgiven damage that was done...but the damage was done and I regret that it happened. This doesn't mean I take all the burden on myself---not at all. My 3-year-old son's look of questioning disbelief when he asked me if it was true I would not be living in the same house with him anymore never will leave my consciousness...and shouldn't. When they moved out of my house I wept and those tears are a forever part of my life too. With that pain I built a new life, very carefully and over a long period of time. And I became of prophet of sorts toward those considering similar changes in their lives. Those were good results from regret. But I'd be kidding myself to tell anyone that regret can or should go away.  

31 Mar 2004 @ 10:57 by martha : Well then
you are still living in your story and not living in the NOW. It is your path jazzy and did it ever occur to you that maybe it was good for your son that you and your wife parted? As Swan said it was a gift for the two of you to part. While you learned from the lesson and moved on to help others with the same choice, you would not have been able to help if you had not experienced it. By hanging on to regreat you hang on to mis-take.
I'm not asking you to forget your past but to love all your experiences and not wallow in the mis-takes.

Regret is just another form of feeling sorry for yourself!  

31 Mar 2004 @ 13:49 by jazzolog : Penetrating The Core Of Regret

Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable.
---Sydney J. Harris

Anyone who doesn't regret the passing of the Soviet Union has no heart. Anyone who wants it restored has no brains.
---Vladimir Putin

I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate commerce.
---J. Edgar Hoover

I have absolutely no regret about my vote against this war. The same questions remain. The cost in human lives, the cost to our budget, probably 100 billion. We could have probably brought down that statue for a lot less.
---Nancy Pelosi

I have many regrets, and I'm sure everyone does. The stupid things you do, you regret if you have any sense, and if you don't regret them, maybe you're stupid.
---Katharine Hepburn

Make the most of your regrets; never smother your sorrow, but tend and cherish it till it comes to have a separate and integral interest. To regret deeply is to live afresh.
---Henry David Thoreau

To sum it all up, I must say that I regret nothing.
---Adolf Eichmann

Most people die of a sort of creeping common sense, and discover when it is too late that the only things one never regrets are one's mistakes.
---Oscar Wilde

Maybe all one can do is hope to end up with the right regrets.
---Arthur Miller  

31 Mar 2004 @ 13:52 by martha : really Jazz
To sum it all up, I must say that I regret nothing.
---Adolf Eichmann

Your sarcasm is showing my dear!  

31 Mar 2004 @ 13:56 by vibrani : Regret
that remains eats away at one.  

31 Mar 2004 @ 17:39 by spiritseek : In a small way...
I believe regret is a very powerful tool to be used in learning lessons and to remember regrets in a small way keeps you on your toes and alert down your path of wisdom. You don't have to carry the self punishment or denial it never happened or you never felt regret. Acknowledge your regrets and learn from your/others mistakes.  

1 Apr 2004 @ 01:25 by vibrani : Absolutely, Marie
When I look at regret in my own life, I ask myself do I really regret what happened? The answer is always no. I never regret. I am grateful for what happened or meeting and knowing people because they were a gift to me, no matter how it ended up. I learned something from it and it helped me grow.  

1 Apr 2004 @ 05:47 by dempstress : Hmm...
i'm with mmborders and Buddha.  

1 Apr 2004 @ 06:34 by swan : Martha,
are you hanging around with Buddha now? Lets have a party so we can all meet your new friend:-)

No regrets here either....  

1 Apr 2004 @ 07:25 by martha : Well actually Swan
I hang out with a couple of different fellas....LOL...Isn't the Buddha in all of us?  

1 Apr 2004 @ 09:24 by jazzolog : Ladies
I'm listening...and learning. My wife thinks, since you folks are on my case, that you also should say a few words about impatience. Somehow she thinks I suffer from that fault too. Preposterous.  

1 Apr 2004 @ 11:02 by martha : impatience
Make a few quilts...that's how I learned where the hell did I put that needle!  

1 Apr 2004 @ 11:36 by vibrani : Patience
can also be gained through the discipline of meditation, Richard. You can use the word as a mantra.  

1 Apr 2004 @ 12:43 by skookum : quilts and patience
When I quilt...never fails I prick my finger at least once. Hence...if you are not will discover your error lol  

1 Apr 2004 @ 13:00 by jmarc : one thing about impatiens
The more you nip of their heads, the more they grow.  

1 Apr 2004 @ 13:31 by swan : Martha and I are Aries girls
if we can learn patience anyone can LoL! In the moment there is not need for patience or impatience or quilt or regret but a nice bouquet of impatiens is great!

Quilting is good guilting is not....  

1 Apr 2004 @ 14:27 by martha : Darn right Swan
we are the examples for overcoming impatience... Also my gemini dad was a good teacher of know how two faced those gemini's can be!  

1 Apr 2004 @ 15:08 by spiritseek : The thrill of the chase...
I learned that it was more exciting to wait then when the end finally revealed itself. Especially it gives you time to reflect,put things in order and investigate it further.  

2 Apr 2004 @ 03:08 by jstarrs : The nice thing about....
..impatience is that it teaches you exactly how much you've yet to learn about....patience.

2 Apr 2004 @ 05:22 by jazzolog : Chomping At The Bit

The three chief virtues of a programmer are: Laziness, Impatience and Hubris
---Larry Wall

All human errors are impatience, a premature breaking off of methodical procedure, an apparent fencing-in of what is apparently at issue.
---Franz Kafka

Learn the art of patience. Apply discipline to your thoughts when they become anxious over the outcome of a goal. Impatience breeds anxiety, fear, discouragement and failure. Patience creates confidence, decisiveness and a rational outlook, which eventually leads to success.
---Brian Adams

Perhaps there is only one cardinal sin: impatience. Because of impatience we were driven out of Paradise, because of impatience we cannot return.
---W. H. Auden

Sweetest Lord, make me appreciative
of the dignity of my high vocation,
and its many responsibilities.
Never permit me to disgrace it
by giving way to coldness,
unkindness, or impatience.
---Mother Teresa  

2 Apr 2004 @ 07:14 by swan : Richard,
you have everything you need within you.

"Always we hope someone else has the answer. Some other place will be better, some other time it will all turn out.
This is it. No one else has the answer. No other place will be better, and it has already turned out." (Lao-tzu)  

3 Apr 2004 @ 02:02 by jazzolog : LongHornBill Writes Back
You may recall (or can reread) that my intent in writing this piece last week was to introduce the topic of cause and effect in prayerful activity. I suggested the nature of intentional healing is a very tricky business for me to get my head and heart around...and I wondered about God's involvement and whether He gets petitioned to do stuff. I quoted a friend of a Houston friend in doing this, and he and I have been corresponding since. He has given me permission to copy and paste his views, and so what follows are some of them.  

3 Apr 2004 @ 02:09 by LongHornBill @ : Entire Comment on 3/27
It seems he has made is decision. However, he continues to "attempt" to justify his position. He failed with me. I would not go near a doctor with a knife in his hand. I worked with an attorney friend of mine over 10 years ago. His PSA count was off the scale. Like 325! He joined a breakfast group of nine men that all had prostate cancer. The nine chose allopathic secular medicine and its companion, the pharmaceutical drug cartel. Jim choose alternative. Today, he is the only one alive.

My prostate malignancy was five years ago. (along with bladder, lymph and brain)

Your friend would have to be taught and accept the underlying emotion that is causing his dis-ease. To do that he will have to be receptive. Reading his "excuses" tells me he has delegated his health to a white jacket and chooses not to accept responsibility for his own health.

BTW: The word, "heal" or "healing" does not appear in any medical text book. It is not a medical term and is not used in their treatments. "Heal" is a spiritual term. Removing the prostate does just that. Remove the prostate. The removal heals nothing! However, the removal does help sell more drugs and also to make the doctor's Mercedes payment.

In Mark 16(?), Jesus said when you meet someone that is not receptive to healing, shake the dust from your feet and move on. Pat, I suggest you check your sandals for sand.

You may forward my comments if you choose.  

3 Apr 2004 @ 02:19 by LongHornBill @ : Bill's Response To This Article 3/29
Very interesting.
First: I did not say and I do not believe, God punishes.
I also believe one must take responsibility for their own healing. This requires changing habits and thinking. It means changing diets. Educating one self on acid and alkaline foods.
(Cancer does not live in alkaline bodies. Acidosis is present in bodies where cancer prevails. Very few in the medical community acknowledge this fact. They can't sell drugs if you're well.)

Jesus said there are three steps to healing: Praying, Laying on of hands and anointing. He also said for these three to work there must be receptivity and repentance.

ALL healing was originally in the church. Beginning with the scientific age, about 350/400 years ago the healing moved to the "science has all of the answers" thinking.

BTW: I am an Episcopalian and attend the healing service. The laying on of hands and the prayer are of value. The placing of the cross and oil on the third eye is strictly a placebo. True anointing is with an essential oil and the oil is used in far greater quantity. (An aside: the oil used in the service is kept in a clear bottle. Therapeutic grade oils cannot be subjected to light. They will polymerize and are useless for healing. This is a "scientific" fact.)

I strongly suggest in this time of "thinking" for your friend that he obtain the book, HEALING OILS OF THE BIBLE by Dr. David Stewart. I teach this course and was taught by David. The book is simple and easy to read. It is historical, scientific and among other things explains why oils heal and drugs do not. He can get one from CARE, Inc. 573 238 4846. Or on the Internet

Oh yes. Before I forget. "Repentance" includes looking at the underlying emotion that allowed (created) the dis-ease. Recognizing our responsibility, accepting responsibility and cleansing the emotion. I have not only witnessed this happening I have experienced the same in my life. When I was at the Young Life Clinic ( ) last year, during one of the "emotion" sessions, I was asked why I wanted cancer. An answer came to me immediately. We worked on that emotion using therapeutic grade essential oils ( ) and I continued the work for the next several weeks.

I enjoyed your friends "epistle" and feel blessed that I might have inspired some additional thought.

Another thought: As a matter of explaining why removal of the prostate does nothing but remove the prostate. --Besides my believe that God gave it to us for a reason and there is no white jacket that is greater than God-- when I first had cancer, the main thing we worked on was a fungus in my liver. When I went to the clinic last year with a malignancy in my abdomen a fungus was again discovered in my system (using live blood analysis as seen through a dark field microscope -- your friend's doctor is not trained in this nor does he have a dark field microscope. Guess what we treated? The fungus! Among many other things we used 6 drops of Coriander, 6 drops of Mountain Savory and 6 drops of Lemongrass, all in a 00 capsule, three times a day. The fungus was gone in five
days. The malignancy gone in nine days and the tumor was gone sometime in the
next two months.

Allopathic, secular medicine would had indicated removal of the tumor. The fungus would have remained to attack again. And by the way, when at the clinic one is under the care of medical doctors but one's that are trained on "both sides of the tracks".

I will forward a short article on Drugs and Oils by Dr. Stewart.

Happy Monday to you Pat. You are a great facilitator.

P. S. I have no problem with you disclosing my name and location.  

3 Apr 2004 @ 02:26 by jazzolog : WHY OILS HEAL AND DRUGS DON’T
by David Stewart, Ph.D.

"If you tell a medical doctor that essential oils can bring about
healing with no negative side effects, they won't believe you.
This is because in medical school students are repeatedly told
by their professors that all effective medicines have negative
side effects, and if they don't, then they can't be effective."  

3 Apr 2004 @ 02:53 by jstarrs : Birth, sickness, old age & death...
...main thing is how the mind handles them...  

5 Apr 2004 @ 02:53 by vaxen : Hmmm...
"Language creates spooks which get into our heads and hypnotise us."

"Becoming aware that your mind is controlled by illusions is a major step in freeing yourself from SLAVESPEAK."

Love ya jazzo, get well soon...  

15 Apr 2004 @ 09:43 by dempstress : This...
is something I found on one of the sites listed on this week's 'events' section of NewCiv (yes, I am finally finding my way about). It's a site at, by one Steven Lumiere. As you know I am deeply wary of
'-isms', and have frequently shied away from claims of of 'reality' whether of the New Age or established religion variety. I am not at all sure about all the claims made by Mr Lumiere, but this paragraph from the site comes the nearest to what I feel/believe as a result of the experiences which have come to me over the years.
"It is important to realize that all knowledge is inherently limited and filled with half-truths - the very act of wording concepts or experiences causes a distortion and only points in the direction of real experience. Nothing should be believed for any reason other than direct experience. Even with direct experience, beliefs should be held lightly and flexibly, and allowed to evolve and expand. Everything should be considered possible at all times, while also being practical and agreeing with one's best sense of things at the moment. There is no absolute truth, no only way. The age of religious zealous blind belief and blind faith is over."



22 Jul 2005 @ 21:43 by david @ :
its (my abreviated address) no http:// prefacing it. or, you could clik on to my thanks to stephen for paraphrasing something from my site (merlins magical mystery school and healing temple)... at least its getting out there one way or another.david


I have to confess to special excitement everytime someone walks into this Log out of nowhere. David Raphael Isaacson offers spiritual energetic healings and is based in Sedona, Arizona, and Los Angeles, California. A couple years ago he wrote this letter to Pray For Peace News~~~

Greeting to all my friends...I hope this letter finds you well.

Since everyone has some spin on all that is occuring in the news, here is a message that I was inspired to write. If it means anything to you, great! (If not, that's ok too).

We are a microcosmic reflection of the whole. It is never really about what's happening outside but for what it shows us about ourselves. The drama currently unfolding on the world stage today, is the magnified reflection of the inner turmoil we all carry inside. Perhaps by manifesting it out in the open (in such a big way), the human self can not avoid looking at the shadows on its own face, mirrored back.

Personal Responsibility
I believe that by changing ones' self, we can powerfully affect the universe. This is why I have continued to follow in the healing path. I believe healing of the self is the most powerful thing I as an individual can do to help promote world peace. This is my bottom line.

I thank you for being a part of my effort to make the world a better place. As you heal as individuals, you make a difference to the whole.

It is All about You !

Thanks for visiting, David.

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