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New Civilization News: The Death Penalty |
Category: Legal, Justice 21 comments
13 Dec 2005 @ 04:16 by vibrani : Thanks, jmarc 13 Dec 2005 @ 04:27 by nemue : Yes he did committed terrible acts... BUT, he has tried to redeem himself. He is a man who can help heal many wounds because he has been there. He has done terrible things, we can't get away from that, but how about using his experiences to try and motivate others not to go down the same path. Surely that is worth something. There is a case going on in the UK.. A young 'black man' hacked to death because of his colour. A terrible, wicked crime. The victims mother however said she doesn't hate those who killed her son. She said they really know what they were doing. This is compassion and understanding in the extreme. Lets seek to understand and accept not continue to murder legal or otherwise- for execution is murder regardless of whether the law sanctions it or not. 13 Dec 2005 @ 04:34 by jmarc : I understand your thoughts on televising, and can agree probably, but when I look at that chamber, besides giving me the heeby jeebies, it also looks just a little to sterile. Just a little too hidden for me. The whole proccess just hurts so many people. But, of course, the whole proccess was started when he decided to commit cold blooded murder. Still, I'd join a protest march on our state prison if it ever came to this in my state. 13 Dec 2005 @ 04:35 by vibrani : Nemue How can a person redeem themselves if they don't say they are sorry for what they did - to the victim and the families left? If they feel nothing, they aren't redeemed. Writing books (and maybe it was an attempt to have life in prison instead of death) doesn't automatically make one redeemed of being a four-time killer. It is possible, I do believe that and I have seen it in a few people who came out of prison, but I am not convinced Williams has been redeemed, and as I said the fact is he has not made a positive impact on the youth to give up gang life. Jmarc, have you seen "Dead Man Walking?" Or "Medium"? Or "Green Mile?" I think those showed quite clearly what it's like to be executed. I can still hear the sound of the drug containers going through the machine to the person - click, inject, and so on. It does stay with you and damn, that should be enough to want to keep anyone from commiting murder or crimes that have the death penalty as a consequence. Maybe show these films in a high school and then talk about it with the kids. 13 Dec 2005 @ 04:37 by jmarc : nemue i question how much he has redeemed himself. Is it all publicity or real? Not for me to judge, I think. I can agree though, that if he hasn't sought real redemption, we are taking that chance from him. And that's wrong to me. 13 Dec 2005 @ 04:44 by jmarc : I've seen the executioner's song, read the green mile, looked into this all before in sociology classes. I'm the guy that turns away and can't watch these scenes in fiction, let alone in real life. It just hurts too much to watch. I try to avoid movie and book stories of this type lately. There's enough of it in real world without going looking for it in fiction. 13 Dec 2005 @ 05:21 by vibrani : Yes, it hurts so how can you want to make everyone else watch it on television to see what we are doing if you can't watch it anymore? Do you hope that once will be enough for everyone and then we will outlaw the death sentence? Jmarc, do you think there is anything, legally, that will deter people from committing murder and having to face the consequences - and should there be other consequences? If so, what do you think those would be if we had only life in prison would it be enough? How many people would think that would be a doable existence? Get free food, medical care, learn a trade or two, get some exercise, and so what that you're in a cell and it's all for free? It sure wouldn't attract me, but who knows how it would appeal to some people who have nothing to live for, nothing to lose? How do we reach people before they have to commit a crime and tell them that when they kill someone they are killing a family and its future, they are harming friends, they are harming their own family and friends, they are killing an entire universe, they are killing themselves? Just some general questions to think about. 13 Dec 2005 @ 06:48 by nemue : I will never forget... holding my beautiful cat while he was given a lethal injection. His cry will stay with me forever and haunt me to my dying day. Also we don’t know if Stanley has truly expressed remorse. We only know what we are told. We know that sometimes that the message is sanitised to suit agendas. 13 Dec 2005 @ 06:55 by vibrani : I had a very different experience with my dogs and cat who were given lethal injections. It may sound weird, but they were beautiful experiences - very sad for us, of course - the animals were grateful to be taken out of their misery. I saw their spirits leave their bodies and they felt free from pain. Last year when my dog was dying, a vet came to my home and he was incredible. He gave the dog several injections, the first one to relax her and take her out of her pain. She felt fantastic even though she could not get up on her own because of her condition. She was like this for about 15 minutes and then the vet gave her another one to relax her even more. This went on for an hour of gradual releasing so the dog felt no pain at all. We held her and talked to her, kissed her, and she looked happy. When her spirit left her body I told the vet she was gone. He said, "No, I just checked and her heart was still beating." I said, "Nope, I saw her leave, she's gone." He checked her again and said, "You're right, she's gone." He then dug a large hole for her in our garden and buried her in a bag that would prevent other animals from easily sniffing her out, to protect her. He was amazing and so loving towards our dog and us. Now why can't we be that loving with people who want to die from their terminal illnesses? 13 Dec 2005 @ 07:11 by silviamar : Death penalty is cruel and inhuman. We don't have any right to take the life of another human being. This person commited a horrible act, that's true, and he should receive a punishment. Maybe keeping him in prison all his life is not hard enough, but killing him implies continuing a cycle of violence instead of breaking it. We cannot bring back the life of the people who were murdered, nothing can be done to really alleviate the suffering of the victims and their relatives. We don't solve anything by killing the murderer because we cannot go back in the time to avoid the murder. I wish death penalty would be abolished in the whole world. 13 Dec 2005 @ 14:46 by jerryvest : I fully agree with you Silviamar. How can anyone speak about the sanctity of life and still support the death penalty. I think that it is hypocritical to value the dignity and respect for life while still supporting the death penalty. Btw, did anyone notice the news yesterday when Mr. Bush coldly stated that over 30,000 Iraqis, "more or less," were killed. For those of you who support the death penalty, perhaps you would agree that Bush should face the death penalty for ordering the killing of all of the innocent children and families in this trumped up war. What Bush and the State of California do is 'premeditated' murder. (An interesting concept--would have been helpful if they had meditated and asked for guidance.) In any event, the death penalty and war are uncivilized behavior and we can do better. 13 Dec 2005 @ 20:46 by jmarc : jerry's arguments always either begin or end with Mr. Bush. It's gonna be interesting to see who he blames for everything in a couple more years. Jeb For Pres! lol. I distinguish between clear and present dangers and a guy who is already locked up Jerry. I agree that the death penalty and war are uncivilized though Jerry. To bad we can't get those guys coming over the borders of Syria and Iran etc. to agree. You keep meditating though Jerry. Maybe they'll stop. That sure would be great. I'd really love it. 13 Dec 2005 @ 20:48 by jmarc : vibes I dont want people to be FORCED to watch executions. Just don't think they should be hidden. Maybe if more people find themselves turning the channel, they might start turning their politicians too. 13 Dec 2005 @ 20:49 by jmarc : silvia I agree. 14 Dec 2005 @ 02:00 by jerryvest : I'm sorry if I offended you, jmarc. These two major news events occurred on the same day so I saw a parallel--the president and governor and our supreme court all preventing us from being civilized. Hey, I thought we were the New Civilization and willing to make a change in the way we treat others--we are one. The Dali Lama recently commented on the state of our actions and relationships: "This whole planet is just us," the 70-year-old exiled monk said Sunday. "Therefore, destruction of another area essentially is destruction of yourself." I believe that this can also be translated into killing another being is like killing yourself. Furthermore, "The Dalai Lama told 36,000 people at Rutgers Stadium that the concept of war was outdated and young people have a responsibility to make this century one of peace." While you suggest that I am placing blame on Bush for all of these atrocities--Who do you hold responsible? 14 Dec 2005 @ 02:12 by vibrani : I do believe I said the same thing in an above post - killing another is killing yourself. And the killing of one person is killing an entire universe - and that's an ancient Jewish understanding/saying. Jmarc, did you watch or read the accounts from the journalists who witnessed it last night? While they all said that Williams had no remorse and didn't say anything about what he did before he was put to death, didnt apologize, it was a very hard thing to witness. Some said they don't want to ever do that, again. I wonder if these journalists cover war. 14 Dec 2005 @ 08:57 by jazzolog : Both Sides -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The New York Times December 14, 2005 Execution Ignites New Fire in Death Penalty Debate By SARAH KERSHAW SAN FRANCISCO, Dec. 13 - As plans were under way to hold a large public funeral for Stanley Tookie Williams, the former gangster executed by lethal injection early Tuesday morning, and scatter his ashes in South Africa, his death was stirring fresh passion on both sides of the debate over capital punishment in California. There was also debate within the debate over what impact the execution would have, either on a spate of scheduled executions here or the broader question of where California was headed on the death penalty. Critics of the death penalty, who, among others across the nation and around the world, helped lead one of the most highly publicized campaigns in decades to save a death row inmate's life, said Mr. Williams's execution had already galvanized public opposition to capital punishment. They said the execution would become a powerful tool in their fight to overturn the death penalty, or at least suspend executions in the state. It is possible that at least five death row inmates in California could be executed in the next year. Of the five, only one, Clarence Ray Allen, 75, the oldest condemned prisoner in the state, has a scheduled execution date, Jan. 17. "It was a profoundly sad day this morning when they killed Stanley Williams, a needless act of violence by the state that accomplishes nothing," said Lance G. Lindsey, executive director of Death Penalty Focus, one of the groups that rallied to Mr. Williams's cause. Mr. Lindsey said his group was hopeful that the publicity surrounding the Williams case would aid in the effort to have capital cases more closely scrutinized in California. Most Californians support the death penalty, although those numbers have begun to decline in recent years, according to several polls. Mr. Williams, 51, a co-founder of the Crips gang of Los Angeles who was convicted of murdering four people in 1979, had become, to his supporters, an example of jailhouse redemption and a powerful critic of gang life, both from his cell and through his writings. Mr. Williams, who was executed at 12:35 a.m. Tuesday at San Quentin State Prison, maintained his innocence and pursued a series of legal appeals, including a petition to Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger for clemency and another for a stay of his execution, until the final moments of his life. Mr. Schwarzenegger, a Republican, cited Mr. Williams's refusal to admit to the murders as a reason he denied the request to commute his sentence to life in prison. To those who supported his execution, Mr. Williams was a remorseless, brutal killer responsible for starting a notorious gang now blamed for the death of perhaps thousands of people. And advocates for the death penalty said they did not believe his case would hold special sway here with either the public or lawmakers considering a temporary moratorium on executions. "I can't see in what sense it would lend momentum," said Michael Rushford, president of the Criminal Justice Legal Foundation in Sacramento. He added that Mr. Williams's supporters, including the rap star Snoop Dogg, and the Rev. Jesse Jackson, "picked the wrong guy" to show what was wrong with the death penalty. "It would be like picking Hitler for clemency," he said. "I don't know of a criminal enterprise that has caused more harm than the Crips. Timothy McVeigh didn't kill as many people as Tookie's gang did last year in Los Angeles itself." But Barbara Becnel, a close friend and an editor of Mr. Williams's books who was arranging his funeral, said she would continue to try to prove his innocence. "For the people who opposed Stan," Ms. Becnel said, "they wanted to blame him directly for everything the Crips did. The Crips was a local gang, an L.A. gang, albeit a large one, when he was arrested in 1979. They arrest him and set him up and he never sees the light of day again and the gang becomes statewide, nationwide, worldwide." Ms. Becnel added, "Is a dead man going to be responsible for everything that the Crips do from here on out?" She watched the execution, which took 36 minutes and 15 seconds, said reporters who witnessed it, longer than expected, as a nurse struggled for about 12 minutes to insert a needle into Mr. Williams's left arm. Ms. Becnel described the procedure as "an absolutely barbaric display of truly how cruel the punishment of the death penalty is." "It took the staff at San Quentin 35 minutes to kill Stan," she said. "During the course of their bumbling, we watched him grimace in pain, we watched him finally reach a point of frustration, where you saw him lift his head up, and you could see he was saying, Can't you just do this?" Ms. Becnel said she was arranging to have Mr. Williams's body flown to Los Angeles, where she said a funeral with an open coffin was being planned for Monday or Tuesday. She said Mr. Williams, who was visited by Winnie Madikizela-Mandela at the prison in 1999, requested that he be buried under a yohimbe tree in South Africa or that his ashes be scattered over the "Blue Nile River, to feed the fishes and other organisms." She said she was making plans to scatter the ashes somewhere in South Africa, with a memorial there planned for sometime in January. An aide to Ms. Mandela, the former wife of Nelson Mandela, told a South African newspaper, Beeld, on Tuesday that "she will keep her promise to ensure that Williams is buried in South Africa." Joe R. Hicks, a former board member of Death Penalty Focus, a San Francisco group that opposes the death penalty, who now supports capital punishment, said Mr. Williams deserved to die. But Mr. Hicks, now the vice president of a conservative Los Angeles group, Community Advocates, said he believed that Mr. Williams's execution would touch off "an upsurge of anti-death-penalty work that may have some effect on upcoming campaigns to get rid of the death penalty in California." "There will be an increased frenzy around this," he said. "And it will all spin off the Tookie case." Carolyn Marshall contributed reporting from San Francisco for this article. Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company [link] 14 Dec 2005 @ 10:14 by vibrani : In China a trader has been sentenced to death for embezzeling around $12. He didn't murder anybody. I wonder if the world will speak out about this. 14 Dec 2005 @ 13:05 by jmarc : an interesting spectrum of people (though only a few) have commented on this, all of us it seems are against the death penalty, though it'd be a tough row to hoe finding any thing else we could agree on politically. To bad we can't all put aside those differences and make this change. The bigger macrocosm of the nation and world reflect our opinion , I'll bet. I know a few people myself, who some would label as conservative, who feel the same as I do about how this is. 14 Dec 2005 @ 15:06 by jazzolog : In Tibet I was told in a meditation center (Karme Choling), a peasant crept into a temple and stole the contents of a butter lamp with which to feed his family. For this his hands and feet were chopped off in ritual ceremony by monks, his living body sewn into the stomach of a yak, and the whole mess tossed off a mountain cliff. 17 Mar 2007 @ 19:45 by dqsodtball93 @207.200.116.204 : hmmm... I don't know what to think! I mean I'm on both sides of this issue because If you know for a 100% that if someone killed someone else wouldn't you think they should get a good punishment for it? And if in that rare chance that someone is inosent but proven guilty and they get punished for no reason... So, what do you think? Do we want a death penalty or not? Sure its cruel but we need some kind of force in America and we sure don't have it now. And think about this, some people murder because they can't support themselves and they know there is NO death penalty so they will murder someone to get a better life! don't we need some kind of punishment here? 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13 Dec 2005 @ 02:59, by Jose Overalles