|New Civilization News: Love me for who I am!|
23 comments1 Mar 2006 @ 19:36 by swanny : Love is...
Love is or has become somewhat "ambiguous"...
what does it mean...
It.... Love..... is action or should be ...
but what actions...?
Does Love me then mean "Take care of me"
or take care of us or...
Love is not static either though
Love is action and love thus is dynamic and of a evoling suchness.
A "dynamic" relationship.
So love me/us may mean "let us 'relate' in such and such manner".
Relate to me thus...?
Is that not what we mean but to often too...
it is assumed that we can read the other persons
mind and heart and Know how we are to relate.
Love thus is complex to complex for many to handle.
Can it be made simpler? Or at least more standardized.
1 Mar 2006 @ 19:42 by swanny : Standard...
1. Serving as or conforming to a standard of measurement or value.
2. Widely recognized or employed as a model of authority or excellence: a standard reference work.
3. Acceptable but of less than top quality: a standard grade of beef.
4. Normal, familiar, or usual: the standard excuse.
5. Commonly used or supplied: standard car equipment.
6. Linguistics. Conforming to established educated usage in speech or writing.
Love has no standard?
Maybe it should.
1 Mar 2006 @ 20:49 by poetsong : Hi Swanny
You ask a good question. When we ask to be loved, in general we want affirmation and affection. We also want to be understood. What "Love is" and what we want from love may be different answers.
"Love" is not the easiest word to define. In many ways the purest form of love is an act of the will more than a gut level feeling.
However, in this application I am describing it from the perspective of "What do I need to feel loved?" What do I need from another?
In general we comprehend the expression of love in three primary ways. One is we feel appreciated for what we've done. "What a nice boy Nate! You made that pie for me?"
However, on a deeper level, we want more than to be thanked for an action or task. Otherwise we are being loved conditionally. If you love me for my making you a pie. What happens next week when you are hungry? Unless I make another pie, you may stop showing me affirmation; and so I become enslaved to forever making pies. I am only as good as the last pie I've made. If that is my life, then I feel enslaved rather than freed by love. No one sees good in me, only my pies.
We want affirmation or approval of who we are, when we aren't performing or proving ourselves over and over again. Someone has to see good in our very nature- Not what I do, but who I am: "You are loving, you are kind, you are strong..."
In general, we want to have our being affirmed. At the core there is something good about us, and we shouldn't have to perpetually perform to prove that.
But even more than wanting another to see virtue in us, deep down we want them to make a choice based on seeing good in us, and that is that they would in some way express love, and the most intimate way is immersing themselves in fellowship with us, where another says, "You are so valuable to me I want to be with you, and drink in from you, and have you drink in from me." And I mean this far apart from the sexual connotation. I mean that we want soul fellowship. I'm not content as a walking Island. I need more than to like myself. I'm not content if not drinking in others and having them drink in from me, that we enjoy being together.
At some point I want others to understand me, but not in a judgemental, "What a flawed human you are!" Well, I may have flaws, but I intuit that someone who loves me will see the good in me. In fact, their loving me despite my flaws is what affirms they love me.
Do all have good in them? Yes, at least in potential. Now, that good may be burried and scarred, and so, that person may be like a wounded animal biting and clawing. However, if I see good in them, that is part of what can bring healing and wholeness. In fact, some people are very good at seeing through the outward, and helping others see the good in them.
A desire to be loved is imprinted in us. It can be so distorted that for a time, people act cold and hardened, but their nature wants affirmation, approval and acceptance, not necessarily of what they do (lying) but of who they are at their core.
2 Mar 2006 @ 11:41 by rayon : Fact is, we are not meant to be alone
- but please no standardized stuff Swanny what are you up to here?? Some people are quite particular, not with words but with senses. Part of the strongest attraction COULD actually be what each has consolidated within themselves, alone, in their current life. In the end this would stand for the most viable achievement of both the self and the other, and I am sure in deep soberness, this is what each values most within themselves and therefore in a n other. This could set a magnet situation of recognition, understanding, relaxation, familiarity, all the ingredients and topology for doing something more. To have achieved that something in the first place took creativity, so the likelihood will be that it will not suddenly depart, but look for even greater achievements in this almost known new territory that shows itself. If the territories overlap, that is quite strong a basis, and Absolutely Indeed There will be a different song sheet from each about everything, the best paradox of links one could imagine. Sanskrit has 56 different words for love. The most immediate notion must be the one of speech. And I will not go into the others. Sometimes we know these in our mind, but do we know if there are achieveable.((lots of interuptions here)) However, having an overlapping (of whatever sort, and there must be millions of types) seems to be the most appealing aspect here to accommodate any amount of possibilities. It must be mutual by default, here there is automatic consideration of the other (even tho it may not be covered by the words in the song sheet) calling for on the spot improvisations, to create yet another meeting place.
As for flaws in the landscape, if these have been bridged in the one and not other - just look how easy it will be to do the bridging for someone else, and their precipitous stony footpath for you - its a total, the total resource, sanctioned by God too, not bad really, who on earth wants to despoil this?
However, absolutely nothing can be taken for granted.
2 Mar 2006 @ 14:02 by poetsong : Love as a language
Love is somewhat like a language. There is the intention of the speaker, and the understanding of the hearer. We can intend to say more than the other hears.
My intention may be to edify and bless, and encourage, and make someone feel they are important. However, if I don't know how the other hears love, they may hear something I didn't intend to say.
If someone's primary need is to be touched, hugged, held, that might be the language they interpret as love. Someone connects with me physically. Yet, some people express love in dutiful actions like washing, cleaning, folding. And so, the dutiful lover might be doing their darndest to get it across they love the other, but the other is starving, "You never touch me!"
Well, the dutiful lover might crave that the other do something for them, and get angered, "You are so touchy feely, but you never do anything for me!"
We tend to express love in the language we want to recieve love. If I an dutiful, I want clean socks in my drawers, and perhaps dinner when I come home. And if I'm greeted with kisses and hugs, but see nothing was done, I might misinterpret love given.
So, we need to learn how to speak the love language of others. But if we are really mature, we also learn to listen to the love language of others, which is to say, if someone was raised in a dutiful home and they've worked hard to show me love, but don't show affection (to the degree I like) I don't have a hissy fit, because I read "Love" from them.
My relationship with my father was like that, mostly estranged, and we never had the meaningful conversations I wanted. It wasn't until after my father's death, I really appreciated what he did. He worked two jobs his entire life. I'd have prefered him in my life, which he wasn't. However, in his dutiful mind, he was doing that for his family.
Unfortunately, some people don't get the fact that others need to hear love in their primary language, and only speak one love language. That doesn't mean love isn't there, it's just not communicated well. I can overlook poor translations and still interpret the meaning. But I have to understand the dynamic.
All the same, we desire to be loved; and at least percieve we are valued, and have worth. So, if a bumbling giant hands a bird an uprooted Oak instead of flowers, the bird can be thankful if the bird understands the intention. "Thank you giant, you did this for me..."
Anyone that has cats understands this. They bring home the worst presents, but proud, "Here mom and dad...I brought you a dead mouse!"
2 Mar 2006 @ 14:19 by swanny : Love ... and sight
Do we love "blindly" then...
Perhaps we love our children blindly
but mature love is not infatuation or
lust, mature love, sustainable love is
often the acceptance of another with flaws
It realizes the youth ideal of love is
unattainable. It is thusly a comprimise
and "conditional". That though is what gives it
its strength though. The two become as two as one
they are still individuals but they have the
companionship and confidence of another that is
not totally unconditional. Why? Death. Till death
do us part. But whats that say to romantic notions.
The honeymoon doesn't last for ever. Sooner or later
one squeezes the toothpaste from the wrong end and all
hell breaks loose. Mistakes are make, Love and real life
are not ideal perfect situations.
I knew a fellow once tired to hang himself, his parents
unfortuneately found him to soon. After that all he was
capable of was drooling yet it was something. His parents
could love him but others? Well after a time I grew to appreciate
that at least he could drool and that at least was something
perhaps worth loving perhaps not.
gosh darn I digress
you know I'm getting real tired of digressing.
2 Mar 2006 @ 15:35 by poetsong : Love never ends
Such a sad story Swanny. Love never fails. The question is always, "How much do we love?" The deepest love requires character- inner strength, because it can be tested. However, love is hopeful. It's not about enduring someone I hate. That's a contradiction. Sometimes it's about investing in someone who is difficult.
In the instance you talked about, so many issues could have played into someone giving in to sorrow, including chemical imbalances. However, this only accentuates why it is so important for us to learn to love, and to learn to hear and speak all the languages of love. In general, it's not lack of willingness that causes people to feel unloved. More often, it's lack of insight.
Insight is my knowing how to get past another person's defences and to hear what they are saying. If we know how to do that, we can impart life to those who despair, and help the hopeless find meaning.
As far as "toothpaste" love sees past toothpaste, and so if toothpaste is our undoing, it only exposes all the complex things in our heart. "I love you, but can't stand to see you..."
If I love you, then I see good in you or at minimum know that good is you. And there may be superficial preferences, likes and dislikes, which make it harder for me to like someone. But love and like are weird. Likes and dislikes can be so superficial. If I choose not to love on that basis, then my love is not great. If I love someone, I know there is something to like in them. And if it is not obvious, I will go on a treasure hunt to find it, nurture it, encourage it.
I've seen this in real life, where someone was at first of no appeal to me. They seemed odious and difficult. But often, after digging, I found diamonds and rubbies. They were far deeper than I thought. But again, few will invest that much in another, especially a difficult person, and especially if they have no gaurantee of success.
For me, the successes always outweigh the failures. If I invest in someone and kindle nothing, I've lost little more than time. If I invest and succeed, the harvest far outweighs the investment.
2 Mar 2006 @ 17:08 by rayon : Poetsong?
Where is intuition?? silent knowing, over and above folded socks? All your words are good - but is someone with someone who never does anything for them? No language, no socks. What about trust and faith? association is not casual, but dynamic, like your lovely poems, they show faith and trust.
Swanny: getting into the deep end here. Eloquent nevertheless. key question as always. I do not think Ideal Youthful Love is IDEAL, it is myth. Except for some in supported belief systems. Mature is preferable with mutal belief systems concidental.
Youthful Ideal love percieves something lovely but far away uncomprehending, victim of history's circumstance thrust into each young moment - too much to bear - to understand - lost homes faraway in time and place - wars too much to bear. Mature love is visible in people's eyes, in a pose, becoming part of the cell structure for those that wish to notice.
2 Mar 2006 @ 17:17 by rayon : Poetsong
There has to be attraction to want to get beyond someone's defences. Wanting to help someone is not the same is complete love, that help has to be unconditional and silent, it is a different kind of love. I am not sure pity is good, but just love for its own sake and probably unexplainable.
2 Mar 2006 @ 18:18 by poetsong : Love and pity are different.
Nraye, I love the fact that you ask the deep questions. I'll have to stretch to try an answer. Love may have pity, but pity isn't the same as love. In fact, I can pity someone and walk off and be done with them. Love may over-ride a lack of natural pity, looking for the reason to hold the hand of someone for their need, and not because of what feelings I have. I may struggle to find pity for some and still do good for them.
Love is higher than pity. Pity for pity's sake may be good, or it may serve no purpose at all. Love looks beyond pity to the bigger picture. In a sense, Pity is a temporal thing. Love looks at the end, and acts accordingly. Whose ends? Their ends, mine, my children's, society's, eternity's. In fact, in some cases, I may have to withhold pity for someone's sake. I may pity someone going through heroin withdraw and want to see their pain go away. So, for a time, I might have to turn from my desire to remove their pain, for their sake.
Love is costly, although in some cases it is reciprocated. If I love someone easy to love, then I haven't done anything out of the norm. If I love someone that is hard to love, then I have gone beyond. The question is, "Why go beyond?" What is the incentive? Why bother? Do I have to go beyond for anyone/everyone, or should I pick and choose?
Nraye, your point is well taken in the context of a relationship, particularly a partner/romance relationship. Are we to sacrifice everything for another and get nothing in return? Well, my belief is that we never get "Nothing" in return for love. We just may not get it from the one we hoped to get it from.
Love and character benefit us and the world. I am never a fool for loving, even if the one I love spits at me. Of course, I don't have to stand there and let them spit at me- for my sake and there sake and other people's sakes. Allowing someone to destroy me and others is not love either. How does that benefit the destroyer? It doesn't. Letting a selfish person get away with selfish behavior is not love. Love would want them to grow, become a better person, not affirm their selfishness.
Love is not spelled, "Walk all over me...use me...abuse me..." Love has a voice, and expectations. It has boundaries. "This is where I begin and you end." If love had no boundaries we'd be in real trouble. We can stop one child from pummeling another and demand they do, and reciprocate if they don't. Why? Child the pummeler doesn't own child the pummeled. We have to act in wisdom, and establish, "I will not allow you to be selfish! For your sake and your brother's sake!"
We can tell our kids it's not okay to be an axe murderer. In fact, we can set all kinds of boundaries, but love weighs them all, and acts.
So, if someone thinks love is an enabler, they are wrong. I might be forced by love to confront someone about their actions, especially if it endangers them, me, others in my house. "If you do this, there are consequences...I will not allow you to destroy my children..." So, love makes distinctions, and has distinct priorities.
I can tollerate someone blowing smoke in my face to a degree, much more than I would tollerate them blowing smoke in my wife's face or children's faces. It isn't hate or lack of love, but understanding love doesn't mean having no boundaries or opinions.
I may bend over backwards to love someone, however, I can say clearly, "You hurt me when you do this...and even...If you point a gun at me, don't expect me to live in the same house as you..." It's not lack of love, or forgiveness, it's establishing a boundary. I want the best for you, but that doesn't give you ownership of me, or permission to destroy me, and in fact destroy your own life. I will act in the best interest of all, so weigh the choices you make!"
However, in the context of my message, I am referring to the fact that love goes the extra mile, and isn't looking for a reason to break fellowship, but for ways to repair it, encourage it, nurture it.
In some ways, I was a wounded animal once, not unloving, but so hurt, I'd over-respond to critism, under-respond to compliments. In fact, one girl -when I was young- said, "Did anyone ever tell you that you were cute?"
I honestly thought she was setting me up for an insult, because that's how I was treated at one time, like shoe scum. Well, I reacted horribly, trying to beat her to the punch, not because I disliked her, but because I didn't want ot be hurt.
That's how hurt people respond. They bite (metaphorically) like a wounded dog. Well she said, "What's your problem!" She was right. She meant well, I misread it, over reacted. A possible friend was lost.
Love takes a certain amount of risks, and looks beyond the surface. It wants to "know" the other, is patient with them, and forgiving, and looks for reasons to stubbornly move forward.
Sure some situations are beyond that. But those who love a great deal will often forgive more, show more compassion.
This is not relationship advice. Each situation is unique. I'd love to see every relationship become beautiful. However, I pretty much start with me, and my own willingness. When I've loved stubbornly, I've often been rewarded. Sometimes I've been hurt. But I never stopped believing in love.
Some people are "Give/give" others are "Take/take", and most fall somewhere in between.
6 Mar 2006 @ 22:15 by hgoodgame : Just so..
'In truth people are deep wells, and what we see outwardly does not reveal the complexity of what is in their hearts.'
In fact many of us do not even see the complexity of our own hearts. The heart can be traitorous, especially if we don't listen and follow it! It is capable of being blissfully happy one minute and dissatisfied the next. It's still evolving too.
But what your title made me think of was this - Love me for what I'm not! ;)
Actually, it's a waste of time to ask anyone to love us, one way or another, they either do or don't.
I don't believe we can choose to love; we love, or don't, that's it. If it's a temporary experience it's still valuable. Falling in and out of love is the chemistry part of the equation. But why fall out of love unless it's time to move on? And everything, including relationships, moves. And even the 'happily ever after' ones involve a lot of inner work from everyone involved!
To hold back for fear of the heart being hurt keeps us from fully experiencing all we came here to experience. Sure it's a terrible pain, I know, too, but I'll jump back into the deep end every time if that's where the next light is shining for me.
7 Mar 2006 @ 01:47 by swan : Love is an unlimited energy,
which has nothing to do with conditions. As Heidi said, it just is. Real love flows outward when one comes to a place where they first love themselves without conditions. If I love myself I can love everyone else. There are many words for the word 'love', but in reality it is an energy from our creator, which is in everything and available in an endless flow. Rather than falling in love we can just be In Love and there is no where to fall from there. When I am in love with life I am loved, I am loving, I am love. What we send out comes back to us. I love you all...
7 Mar 2006 @ 13:50 by poetsong : Great feedback hgoodgame and swan
It's so true many of us do not even see the complexity of our own hearts, and this is the very reason we can go from being blissfully happy one minute and dissatisfied the next. In fact, we could write an endless book covering this.
And yes, I also agree we need to love ourselves; and I could go all day in discussing love as coming from the creator.
All of this highlights something. In order to manifest love, and express love in its highest form, we have to understand our place in the Universe, who we are, and others.
I think our conversations will benefit others. Here's why. Not all love equally, or understand love. Some have difficulty recieving and expressing love. And so, our conversation acts like a seed in the hearts of those who wonder about these things.
Perhaps someday I'd love to look at the supernatural aspects, eternal aspects, and divine aspects of love. I imagine many people do not believe in a creator, and disagree on what the creator would look and think like. So, to further the conversation, I'm going to discuss this from the most common denominator, our hearts. We are love junkies by nature. And it takes a lot to extinguish that; but unforunately, some families are so dysfunctional, showing only conditional love at best, that we have a world full of people who do not understand love, and have a somewhat skewed and warped perspective.
If I love myself, I don't give myself everything my impulses desire. That is how a child thinks. If you love me, you'll let me eat blueberry ice-cream until I turn blue. It's a very Willy Wonka way of looking at things.
Love has to look at the bigger picture. If withholding something benefits me in the longrun, then I need to withhold something. Or if doing something I don't feel like doing benefits me in the longrun, then I need to do it. True love requires a measure of commitment and discipline. It must be willing to sacrifice.
And so, in my relationships, I have to comprehend, "What would love do..."
Some see love as being somewhat like a cosmic energy,like a river we can tap into and drink from. I don't discount the spiritual aspects of love, as a revelation, or in fact, as being the purpose for things. But since some of these same people who believe in the spirit of love, demonstrate it in less than practical ways, and say, "I love you, but don't dare ask me to do anything for you," I want to discuss this from a practical perspective.
Love may be very spiritual, but I don't see it as purposeless like Luke's Force, but rather purposeful. Even our hearts agree with purposeful actions. We are fans of nurture, and rightly disturbed when a mother abandons its children, whether human or animal. So, we know by nature that love does and doesn't behaive in certain ways. Love is kind, not harsh. It is not neglectful, but would nurture. A picture of what love looks like so hard-wired in us that we are insulted, and in fact incensed if we were robbed of nurture. When parents and society doesn't nurture, we can walk around with a giant hole that nothing seems to fill (until we are healed)
Regardless of spiritual belief, wounded souls act in certain ways to tell us that the damage caused by neglect and abuse is Universal. Wounded people cross all belief systems, and religious experiences may help in measure. But the reality is that wounded people often need equal doses of insight, understanding, and love demonstrated.
And so, you see very spiritual people, even those who have spiritual experiences, constantly striving, never feeling good enough. Strife is a sign we are not comfortable in our skin, with who we are, and feeling like we need to prove ourselves endlessly. That is not my goal, and shouldn't be anyone's. LOL
My point here, is that since love has purpose, it is an active force. "I love, therefore I ....fill in the blank...express love in ways the hearer can understand."
Love is not passive, simply a feeling, "Well, I love everyone in that starving country, but frankly I won't lift a finger to help them..." If love can't motivate us, then it isn't really love. Love comes home after a hard day, and doesn't say, "Meet my demands..." We may do that, and we can't chide ourselves for being tired and hungry. Our nature may think, "Me first...what about me!"- and that comes to mind when I have a terribly hard day.
But love comes home tired and feeds the children, and then helps the spouce who may also be tired and hungry to unwind. Love pushes us to go the extra mile.
On receiving love: I agree, we can't make or demand others love us, but I can tell you this, if you sow love, you will reap a harvest. This is where the love-starved end up ham-stringing themselves. They want love so badly, they become demanding, and moody, and act in desperation through either being too pushy, or through emotional withdrawl. And so, they look at the evidence and say, "I'm not loved! Look, nobody wants to listen to me, or cares how I feel!"
That's generally not true. People respond to outward superficial actions. If someone constantly complains to me, and is forever self-absorbed (a byproduct of wounding), they create this negative energy, and inadvertantly push away the people they need in their lives. These people may genuinely care, love them, but they get warn out because if you pour water into a bucket with holes, it never fills up.
Wounded people must be given insight to cause and effect, and how to turn their inward oriented thinking outward. If they greet everyone with hellos (but what about me and my needs) and they smile at people, and make people feel important (but what about me and my needs?)
This is the point, if I care about me, and what I've done all my life isn't working, I need a clue. The clue is this, sow love and love will come back to you. If I go around making people "know" they are loved, and not some passive-agressive manipulative giving to guilt people, then people will want to be with me, and care about me, and express love for me. So, giving is the primary way we receive.
Sure, at one time I didn't realize this, and was so wounded and self-absorbed, I wore out my friends, and inadvertantly pushed people away. And it was hard changing my orientation from, "What about me...what about my needs..." to "What about them? What about their needs? How are they feeling? Do they need a hug, a smile, or a listening ear?"
Wounds make us selfish and self-centered, because by their nature, they are caused by a lack of something and our desperate attempts to take what should have been freely given.
Therefore I must see self-love in context of the bigger picture. "My will be done, or thy will be done" Am I think how to help others accomplish their dreams, or how to make them work to accomplish my dreams. The orientation of our minds is pivitol in growing as a person.
Here's a thought. What does love look like to us? When we think of a loving person, what do we see? And yet, when I was young, I wasn't behaving as a loving person though I loved to some degree. It was when I looked at me through another's eyes, I realized I wanted much more than I was actually giving, and I purposed to change that.
7 Mar 2006 @ 14:02 by swan : Here is how it works for me,
when I love myself, because I have spent the time of discovery to find out who I really am, love radiates out of me. I am not concerned about doing things so I get something back, I just do things because I love people. Because love is a reciprocal energy it just comes back. I often ask " how can I bring more love to this situation" when things are not going so well. Love removes problems. It is really very simple when we understand that love just is. I know from personal experience that a great deal of work is needed to get to that place of understanding. Navigating from the heart creates a life of love.
7 Mar 2006 @ 20:34 by poetsong : The path may differ
I'm sure people differ in their approaches to expressing love. That may have some to do with the differences between the genders; but also differences in the way that personalities see the world. Men tend to have to rationalize more, though not all, and think of expressing love in concrete steps. It's a different way to get there, but just as genuine.
Others intuit what love requires, and seems more like a reflex.
Either way, love expressed is grand.
7 Mar 2006 @ 20:54 by jstarrs : love expressed is grand.
anything else is conceptualizing about it.
love expressed is grand.
8 Mar 2006 @ 17:23 by poetsong : We have to conceptualize to some degree
Hi Jstars. Yes, love expressed is grand. If only we had control over those who could express it too us, and not only over whether we express it?
I imagine we always have to conceptualize love on some levels, imagining how deep and how far...because in this world, we are only able to know in part, and so, we continue to grow in understanding, never reaching (fully) and always reaching higher. I can only conceptualize what it is to be completely poured out for another and in another, and frankly, I know its beautiful, but frightening at the same time. I have only tasted in part, but seek to go deeper.
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