@markjbradford quoted @GrahamHill, which was retweeted by @Technoshaman

• "The key is that effective co-creation needs to be organised. It doesn't self-organise..."

I totally disagree with this, thus I responded to them saying:

• Effective co-creation needs to self-organise! E.g. you're not organised by cells who enact a plan.

• Complex evolutionary systems (eg organisms, communities, etc) are not machines that we can 'make'.

• Minds r conduits for ideas & actions that contribute to the process, but egos are not the doers.

• Egos distrust self-organisation b/c an ego is a cognitive control-system confused by its self image

• Those who distrust self-organisation have yet to understand it. All that exists has self-organised!

• All that exists has self-organised! Even your computer. Design is memetic evolution within a mind!

• We are not just "people in a world", we are subsystems within a global complex adaptive system.

• This system self-organises & evolves at all levels: physical biological psychological social technological etc

Below are some general comments that flowed out of me a few hours later...

• Aside from just action or inaction, one can let the doing happen without interference from the ego-as-doer. Then nothing is left undone.

• The global complexAdaptiveSystem of which we r a part is undergoing a metaSystemTransition #MST http://bit.ly/bAeArl http://bit.ly/amzBvz

• The desire that we feel to communicate, collaborate & innovate is the movement of that metaSystemTransition within us and amongst us.

• The ego, via its delusion of being the doer grasps this evolutionary impulse & uses it in its agendas, thus alignment is gradually lost.

• If the doing flows naturally, without ego, it is synchronistically a part of the broader pattern, thus in harmony with the whole.

• This state of spontaneous creative response is known 2 children, artists, geniuses, great athletes, sages and saints. It can be known by any

• Normal consciousness is a state of stupor, in which the sensibility to the real & responsiveness to the spirit are reduced (Abraham Heschel)

• The mystics, knowing that man is involved in a hidden history of the cosmos, endeavor to awake from drowsiness and apathy (Abraham Heschel)

@Technoshaman just responded with:

• A junto convo doesn't just "self-organizes" Design enabled the creation & use of channels & roles

I responded:

• The design self-organises in our minds! Who is the 'you' who allegedly 'did' it? That's the ego with its delusion of doership.

• We have discussed this issue several times in different contexts, its subtle but understanding it is necessary for wise action

• Over time, in subtle ways, the attitude of "being the doer" alienates one from oneself and from the evolutionary impulse.

@markjbradford replied (retweeted by @technoshaman):

• memetic agents are the primary movers in the system, not the memes themselves

I replied:

• In epidemiology would you also say that hosts are the primary movers and viruses are passive?

• Mind is essential, but the ego, the one who says "I did that" is not necessary for design to occur.

• When memes propagate, mutate & compete within our minds & cultures technological innovations occur.

• Action is vital, but we need to understand the situation 4 the action to be holistically effective.

• If one lets the process unfold rather than interferes with it, it will be holistically appropriate.

• If ur inspired to do then do! But if you spread the "discourse of the doer" you cripple inspiration

• The egoic "discourse of the doer" is a primary cause of the global systemic crisis that we face

• The egoic discourse leads us to create stunted & warped systems that are holistically destructive.

Wonderful synchronicity! This video just came to me via @Spaceweaver:

• When ideas have sex http://bit.ly/deqeME TEDtalk: the engine of human progress is the mating of ideas to make new ideas. #memetic #evolution

And @Dorait just tweeted the following, retweeted by #CoCreator:

• Prof Sugata Mitra: "I think we have stumbled across a self-organising system with learning as an emergent behaviour," http://bit.ly/9kMas2

I commented:

• see "self-organising system with learning as an emergent behaviour" http://bit.ly/9kMas2

• "discourse of the doer" w/d say a teacher must do the teaching, but not true http://bit.ly/9kMas2

• If systems didn't self-organise we wouldn't exist, neither would we have culture or technology.

• If we harness self-organisation rather than stifle it, transformations can occur at all levels.

• We sh/d understand selfOrganisation & encourage it rather than foster the "discourse of the doer"

• Then we weaken the old paradigm & strengthen the new. Then we can co-create in truly effective ways

A quote that came up in another conversation is also relevant:

• "He who perceives that all aspects of actions are performed only through prakriti (constituents of nature) and also that the self is a non-doer, he may be said to have truly perceived." (Bhagavad Gita, Chpt 13)

Also see:

• Karma Yoga: The Way of Action - Quotes from the Bhagavad Gita http://bit.ly/bD2D2R

• Quotes regarding the illusion of being a person http://bit.ly/c06WiU

• Memes, Minds & Collective Intelligence – Short Tweet List http://bit.ly/c0sg2k

@GrahamHill said:

• I think you mistake an untestable philosophy (MSTT) for a testable hypothesis of reaity

I replied:

• MSTT is just one example amongst many. System science is testable & well tested!

• common sense "discourse of the doer" is testable too, but it does not withstand close scrutiny!