New Civilization News: The Bible ? Religion ?    
 The Bible ? Religion ?
picture 14 Jan 2004 @ 11:35, by Scotty

This conversation (taken from the Mediation Room ) came about after my having read about yet another poor woman being murdered - because of family honor !
Family Honor - a question of morality - a belief system ...

I didn't want it to get lost in the rolling dialogue so - here it is here - to be continued perhaps !

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scotty:. . . 2004-01-13 07:07:03
oh God how awful!

What horrors there are in the world - thank goodness there is beauty too - I so fervently wish(pray) that one day the world really will be a better place to live.


scotty:. . . 2004-01-13 07:27:09
maybe we could start by getting rid of books containing this kind of crap ..[link]


mmborders:. . . 2004-01-13 08:49:04
"A woman who is not a virgin when married"- damn I'm in big trouble!


scotty:. . . 2004-01-13 08:49:57
heh heh heh !Martha - you kill me !

As I stand in line beside you,( Homosexuals. Lev 20:13.)all I can think to say is .."After you" !(polite child that I am !)

We can find consolation perhaps in knowing that we're not alone ..Those who are accused by at least two people
of wickedness. Deut 17:6.

heh heh heh - and finally , when one has looked at the whole list - who's going to be left to carry out the penalty ? LOL!


mmborders:. . . 2004-01-13 10:29:22
"when one has looked at the whole list - who's going to be left to carry out the penalty"- I believe Jesus was trying to make just that point.


scotty:. . . 2004-01-13 10:39:06
yeah great ! but the book should say so - in LARGE print ! (grin)


ninharsag:. . . 2004-01-13 17:13:48
Jesus was a Jew - he would have ascribed to those horrid laws about killing for eating a lobster.


scotty:. . . 2004-01-13 17:16:54
and how about this one - A man with long hair (Jesus?). 1Cor 11:14
and whatever you do - don't hold your breath because ... a thing is not alive until breathing. Gen 2:7.


HEY ! How come homosexuals are mentioned twice ?
Do I get to get killed twice ??


scotty:. . . 2004-01-13 17:24:13
Jeeze ! A true Christian should be baptized, have faith,
cast out demons, speak in tongues, take up
serpents, be able to heal the sick, and be
completely immune to any poison. Mark 16:16-18

Thank God I'm a Buddhist ! (heh heh heh)



jazzolog:. . . 2004-01-14 02:50:04
Thank Who, Scotty?
Your summary of what a Christian is supposed to be about is a tall order, for sure. Religions seem to have high expectations. I look forward to your Buddhist cleansing of all suffering before you accept your enlightenment.

Currently Lutheran and Episcopal congregations are in communion and facing headon the interpretation of homosexual behaviors as condemned in Jewish and Christian bibilical texts and traditions. Obviously we Episcopalians dive into things with more abandon than do the Lutherans, who like lots of study groups. I'm hearing two things emerging from the current negotiations.

The first is that what we have come to describe as the Gay Lifestyle didn't exist at all in earlier times, not even in Ancient Greece. The approach our civilization is taking seems to have been a response of sorts to Victorian rigidities. This is why some Christian theologians are working to reinterpret and reshape our attitudes. These theologians are shocked that any church would deny spiritual development and salvation to anyone who seeks its relief and blessing.

The second thing I'm hearing under discussion is the caution about decreeing some norm in that lifestyle. There is much talk about the difference between homosexual partnership and marriage. Some homosexuals are protesting that favoring "permanent" relationship discriminates against them. They say they like the "gayness" of random and frequent change of partners that the lifestyle has offered. They don't want to come to a church that favors some married thing between homosexuals. There are also theologians who want to reserve the term marriage for just heterosexual arrangements.

This stuff is really tough to sort through and deal with...but at least some Christians are trying to do it. I'm glad I don't have the resposibility for such decision-making.


scotty:. . . 2004-01-14 07:35:53
Hi Jazzoo!
hmm - Not 'my' summary Richard - it was taken from a link that I'd left further up the page - in case you missed it ..{ [link] }
As for my Buddhist cleansing of suffering - hmmm - not possible I'm afraid ! (not if I want to grow that is !)
Unlike many people I don't believe that non-suffering was the point of Buddhas teachings - I believe he was trying to teach us another way of coping with and learning from our pains.
Being relieved of our suffering doesn't mean that one doesn't suffer in the first place - it means that one doesn't have to become locked into it - like holding onto a burning coal in ones hand instead of dropping it ! (having said that - I don't propose that one HAS to suffer to grow either - but simply that it can be used as a tool. )

Gay lifestyles (whatever that means !) didn't exist at all in earlier times !!! ?? I'm rather inclined to think that all human conditions existed since the begining of time - and yeah old Queen Vicky was a bit of a hypocrite - she had several lovers it seems - so much for Victorian morality ! LOL!

I'm not sure what the 'norm' for homosexuality is ! nor the 'norm' for heterosexuality either when it comes to it ! (who decides all these norms anyway - norms that most of us don't seem to fit !)

I can't quite get it into my head that homo's are alone in wanting to enjoy the sexual freedom that not being married offers .. being married does of course equate with not sleeping around !

I don't believe that ones sexuality has anything to do with morality ! (I didn't even before I knew I was gay either by the way ) I think we'd all be better off if we stopped pointing the finger at others and got on with the job of taking care of our own morals - looking for the similarites and diversity instead of pointing out differences that tear us appart !
As for homo marriage - I'm neither for it or against it - just like hetero marriage, only the individuals concerned know what is right for them - I do think though that everyone should enjoy equal rights - men, women, homo, straight, children, black white and yellow and animals and the planet too !

It's heartwarming to know that some christians are trying to sort through some of the problems ... talk about 'mission impossible' !LOL
Maybe one day we'll find that dealing with our inner selves will bring an answer that everyone can live with!


jazzolog:. . . 2004-01-14 09:24:28
I think we're in agreement on the point and helpfulness of religions. Whether the goal on the Buddhist path is the easing of sentient suffering or the attainment of nirvana, the compassion is to help others achieve it first. And so, like the Christian example, we stagger with the thought of the impossibility of it. UNTIL we understand that there is a point of view here, a vantage point, a perception that is a turn-around---and then we find helpfulness in our development.

Certainly homosexuality existed in earlier societies. It occurs in Nature. My point is how society looked at it. The "lifestyle" means no longer secret and maybe perverted (one powerful person taking advantage of someone else) but rather moving to openness in a community. Those behaviors clearly would have been rare and usually fatal in earlier times. We'll see whether the Episcopalian church works our way through our decisions...and if we proceed to tear ourselves apart over this.


scotty:. . . 2004-01-14 09:42:16
hmm - not sure I understand what you mean when you say .."and maybe perverted (one powerful person taking advantage of someone else) "
are you meaning 'societies power over homosexuals' ?


mmborders:. . . 2004-01-14 10:42:26
Damn, I'm still trying to deal with the virginity issue! Why don't men also have to be virgins at marriage...(forget the excuse that at least one of them has to know what they are doing...or the fact the woman might be carrying another man's baby...or all the babies born where the father denies responsibility). This is all confusing to me that god can condemn women but not men...sounds like this was all written from the man's viewpoint...as usual!


mmborders:. . . 2004-01-14 10:44:40
Or that people can pick and choose what they want to believe in the bible. I don't believe the bible. There is only partial truths in it, so it makes no logical sense to read it and revere it. Or memorize it or waste ones time at all. It is a false doctrine created by man to control and put fear in others. Oh I also don't believe many of the other religious doctrins written by men. None! (Nora am I being authenitc enough now?...LOL)


scotty:. . . 2004-01-14 10:59:45
I'm enclined to agree with you Martha - however - theres a lot of good stuff in the Bible - I think it's the heart of man that is the problem !

When will we ever learn !


scotty:. . . 2004-01-14 11:09:43 [Edit] [Delete]
hmm - I just found this .."The Bible is a lot of things to a lot of people, but to Christians, especially, it is a source of inspiration and a guide to daily living.
To others, the Bible is a historical document and a source of controversy.

To others still, the Bible is a self-contradictory mish-mash of arcane rules and proscriptions, mostly relevant to long-dead cultures in far away places.

What is the truth in all of this?" .. [link]

And then ther is this .. [link]



so - I'm off for a wee read !


jazzolog:. . . 2004-01-14 14:00:00
This is getting fascinating. (Beware O male...when the females fascinate you thus: learn from the three-warted devilfish...as featured in Nemo~~~ok...that reference is completely obscure, but I shall reveal the relevance anon.)

No, perversion is completely personal---hopefully. If the whole society is perverted only doom awaits. By perversion I mean one person taking power over another, who is unwitting in the relationship. I believe the huge religious and social response to such goings-on was inspired thus. And still we struggle with this~~~the Michael Jackson problems.

I anticipate we may adjourn to Scotty's Log for a continuation. She mounting it as we speak. \\\\Whoops////


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