|New Civilization News: "War Is Not The Answer"|
16 comments13 Sep 2004 @ 05:16 by craiglang : So...
What are you advocating?
13 Sep 2004 @ 18:57 by bkodish : What am I advocating?
Am I an advocate of 'peace', if I call myself 'anti-war'?
Do I advocate against 'peace', if I don't align myself with those who call themselves 'anti-war'
Who is against 'peace'?
13 Sep 2004 @ 21:14 by craiglang : Mother Theresa's Quote:
Something to the effect of "No I will not attend your antiwar rally. But if you hold a rally FOR peace, I will be there"
My view is that true peace can only happen if we solve the underlying problems that give rise to a conflict in the first place. Even if a war is fought to some conclusion (one side or the other wins) there often is not true peace, because often the underlying conflicts remain.
For example, we still have deeply ingrained racial tensions, even though the USA nearly tore itself apart nearly 150 years ago in civil war. Furthermore, while we don't have slavery, we still have a multitier economic system.
I would bet that for every situation in the current historical era which has supposedly been solved by war, there is probably a deep, underlying issue which still remains, and could at some point erupt in war again.
IMHO, true peace only comes when both parties can rise above their differences. For many, in the current world state of affairs, that is infeasable without major change. Though I certainly don't know how we would accomplish such change, I do not believe it is impossible.
I firmly believe that war is NOT the answer to any qustion. However, peace studies are an incredibly complicated topic, and if you are saying that pro-peace is not the same thing as anti-war, then I agree with you. Hence my question as to what it is that you advocate. My qeustion still stands...
13 Sep 2004 @ 21:36 by vibrani : What gets me
is when peace demonstrators act violently in the name of peace.
14 Sep 2004 @ 03:43 by bkodish : I seem to recall Craig, that you call
yourself a "pacifist." Is that correct?
If you take a look around my weblog, I think you can come to a reasonable conclusion that a "pacifist" I am not and that I definitely would not agree that "war is Not the answer to any question."
Although this may answer your question, I suspect that you will find my answer bothersome.
14 Sep 2004 @ 03:56 by vibrani : I think war is sometimes the only answer
even though it is the last thing I would choose. I have often explained that sometimes war is necessary to stamp out a greater evil. Some people don't understand that, or agree with it. They have yet to provide another reasonable and realistic solution, in conjunction with peacefully meditating on, or intending to create peace.
14 Sep 2004 @ 04:08 by bkodish : I remember spending a night sitting in a
bomb shelter in Northern Israel in 1975 during a P.L.O. Rocket attack. After a few hours, the sounds I heard were not the P.L.O. Katyusha's raining down on my town, Kiryat Shemona, but the sounds of Israeli jets 'creaming' P.L.O. positions and probably killing some Palestinian Arabs over in Lebanon, a few kilometers from me, where Arafat's P.L.O. had formed a mini-terrorist state in the south. I felt glad hearing the sounds of the bombing jets. I'm sorry if any innocent Arabs got killed. I'm not sorry that those jets responded to the attack.
By the way, a year before, a P.L.O. 'peace' delegation had swooped down on Maalot, a nearby town in Northern Israel and took 90 Israeli schoolkids hostage. Ultimately Arafat's 'brave soldiers' killed 26 people, including 2 Israeli Arab women on their way to work and 20 schoolkids. They wounded another 60 children. Preview of Beslan. The P.L.O. had also committed a similar atrocity in Kiryat Shemona capturing an apartment block and killing 16 civilians and 2 soldiers before being killed themselves. I was in the civil guard there for a brief time, carried a rifle and would have used it if I had to.
If someone is coming to kill me, I will do what I can to stop him. If that means killing him first, I will kill him.
Bin Laden and his friends learned from the example of years of appeasement and coddling of the arch-terrorist Arafat and his Palestinian Arab highjackers and child-murderers. These Palestinian Arabs, as well as the Bin-ladinists and other jihadists learned that they could get concessions from 'peace' lovers. The concessions, rewarding the terrorism, led to more terrorism.
This seems hard for 'peace now' people to understand.
Without accepting the necessity for self-defense at times and the possibility of just war, the way is open for barbarians to destroy the innocent at their will.
14 Sep 2004 @ 04:32 by bkodish : You would be mistaken
if you gather from what I said above that I think "All Muslims and all Arabs are evil and should be killed." No, I DON'T HATE ALL ARABS. I DON'T HATE ALL MUSLIMS. Unfortunately a hell of alot of Arab-Muslims hate all Jews and all Israelis. Some of these people work to kill my friends and relatives in Israel and elsewhere simply because they are Jews. Unfortunately, such dastardly Arab/Muslims presently constitute the ruling group in the Palestinian areas. Those who support these killers also represent the ruling groups and probably constitute a majority of the population in other Arab-Muslim lands.
The war will stop when Arab-Muslim people 'turn over' and generally decide to accept and embrace the Jewish people as an indiginous people of the Middle East and accept Jewish Autonomy in the state of Israel.
14 Sep 2004 @ 16:49 by craiglang : Sentiments
I think I pretty much understand your sentiments from the last few comments. So in some areas, we may simply need to agree to disagree. And you are right, I do consider myself a pacifist.
Also, from previous comments, I note references to war as necessity. What I detect here is a considerable difference between "necessity" and "answer". If someone attacks me in a dark alley, I would probably be considerably less of a pacifist... :-) FIghting back would be a necessity to save my wallet and possibly my life. However it probably wouldn't solve the problem of mugging, the issues that led that person to become a mugger, etc... The underlying problems are much deeper than that.
Similarly, in the case WW2, war was probably in the end, the only option. But it was NOT the answer, only a survival option. Us going to war didn't really solve anything except the problem of survival for a few more years. There was still the issue of the many and varied political systems which at their core believed they were incompatible with eachother.
So IMHO there is a big difference between immediate necessity and solution to the problem. Nevertheless, I canunderstand where you are coming from (at least, I think I do, a little bit,anyhow). Sounds like you have a pretty amazing life story. I would love to hear more about it sometime.
15 Sep 2004 @ 02:49 by bkodish : I appreciate your comments, Craig.
I think we're starting to get to level of some basic assumptions that we both may hold. You seem to separate out "the problem of survival for a few more years" from "the answer," "immediate necessity" from "solution to the problem."
This seems to imply that there exists some 'answer' that will constitute some ultimate solution to human conflict and violence.
Personally, I don't believe that there exists such a solution. As far as I know the tragic nature of human existence necessitates conflict, which means that there will constantly come up situations of agression and violence to deal with.
Of course, we can work to reduce conflict and the harm that comes from it on personal and social levels. We can work to create more peaceful lives and more peaceful places. But I personally don't expect any utopian end of violence.
15 Sep 2004 @ 04:36 by craiglang : The gradual struggle toward peace
In one sense, I suspect that you are right. I doubt that there will ever be a sudden "utopian" end of violence, as you say. Rather, I imagine a steady growth of human consciousness, with fits and starts of awakening. We have advanced in oh-so-many ways over the history of humanity, with cultural concepts becoming more sophisticated, more ethical, etc. I agree with you that peace and a a more enlightened conduct of human affairs certainly will not happen overnight. But my own belief is that an ever-more enlightened humanity will steadilly improve the way we interact with eachother.
In many ways, I see humanity in a manner analogous to children growing up. IMHO we are probably somewhere in adolescence. I would just hope to see this growth and maturation come as soon as feasible.
In addition, I have learned that in most interpersonal issues, there usually exists some sort of creative and nonviolent win-win solution. But it takes a will on the part of all parties to find it. When it does happen, the results can be nearly miraculous.
My own view is that even in the darkest of situations, where there seems to be no chance of warring parties even being willing to speak to eachother, miracles can happen. I look at the nonviolent resistance of Ghandi, the South African change-over, the civil disobedience of Martin Luther King, the work of the Carter Center, etc. as indications of transition from a war-based paradigm of social and international realtions. These suggest to me that we are learning (albeit slowly and painfully) to move beyond war. IMHO we are just beginning to see that fundamental change in the social/political order does not necessarily require war.
2 Nov 2004 @ 22:41 by poco : ONLY GOD CAN SAVE US NOW !!!!!!
very intresting disscusion occuring here , and maybe i can answer some of your unanswered questions .
if i was attacked and robed lost my wallet and my shoes ,i personally wouldnt fight back , i would offer to give them my jumper trousers and even underwere if they wished . but in your reasoning and understanding , if i was to be robbed then find out who robbed me , i could go round to there abode and not only rob his wallet & watch , but take his tele bed and a lot more than i lost . this is your rational , but law says i can not do this ? thank god
a intresting point was said , about the robber , the problem is not when the robbery robs , but WHY the robber needs to rob? as we have touched slavery and multi levels of stature , some people simple dont like to work long hours to be paid peanuts , stop money and treat them equall then there would be no more robbery's , you see you cant actually rob something that is yours . and as god give the world not only to mankind but to the animal kingdom as well , we need to learn to share . that simple . treat the robbery as your brother , and would you see your brother starve or go without ? love him and he will love you , hate him and he will hate you .
as for the jews and isreal , dont even go there that the arabs are at fault , as the state of isreal did not even exsist 100 years ago , dont forget the war that took place so the jews could say it is theres . if you claim it and say it is yours somebody will say why is it there ? , look at it closely and see that force made it theres , so they then resort to force . isreal is a sad situation as the apparntly chosen people of god will not act as god would want them , to love there neighbours , not build walls so high that you shut them out of your nice world . there are more arabs in palsitne on or below the poverty line than there is jews world wide . if you take it away by force they will try and take it by force . as for evil , what a joke .
eveil can not be beaten with more evil , only good can beat eveil , and no not one single nation does good by declaring war . war is evil and i have seen it first hand , there is no good and never can be any good come from the evils of war . smelt your tanks and make ploughs , that is the only good that can come from a tank , create food and feed yourself and feed the palstinions , sit and drink and just be happy . love theigh neiboughs . enbrace there children as you would your own , and let them embrace your children with unconditional love .
forget the past now is the future , change it .
all sounds so simple and it would be if there was no polticians to cause hate with propeganda , this is on both sides not just the jews . trouble is when its one of your own family memebers caught up in the past its hard to put it behind you , but think of your children and grand-children and there grand-children change it now or there will relive your terrors and pains .
money poltics and relgious fantics that incorparte there views and not that of god , is all the problems stoping such from happing , power and greed is destruction in every cread this causes us to bleed , as i put at the beging of this topic "only god can save us now "
even being as simple as it sounds , doing is a total diffrent ball game , as its your poltical powers that decide , and they will never change .
this mess is so big its gets to conffusin to look at the simply answer , as people worrie about there houses and cars and wealth , and the idea of sharing that what they workded there life for is seen as obsered , they have forgotten what there were taught as children , TO SHARE
no offense is intended by this post , and i am sorry if anyone is offended by my comments ,
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