New Civilization News: Reality; An offer you CAN'T refuse.....    
 Reality; An offer you CAN'T refuse.....37 comments
5 Feb 2003 @ 18:51, by spells

Hi everyone,

It is truly amazing to me that the most profound and relevant (or just any) response I received from all the mailings I have sent out in the last year, was from someone I have never met in England. I say this because I have sent out important, factual and truthful information to you, my acquaintances, friends and loved ones, and never received an honest response once. An honest response would be one that addressed the facts made and discussed and/or debated these points for one find out the truth, no matter what that meant to us personally.

I do realize that most of you probably delete my messages before reading them, but the only one you are hurting or fooling is yourself. You can hide from the truth for a little while, but that will not make it go away. We are headed for disaster, and it is by the hands of the leaders of this country and all those who follow in silence and self imposed blindness.

Just take 5 minutes away from your busy, hypnotised lives to read the following letter. You are running out of time to wake up.....the snooze button on your alarm clock just fell off....


From “Ian”…

Dear Editor,

As regards Iraq, -if it wasn’t so serious; it could be a silly farce or some music hall routine, enacted by low-grade comedians. But it’s deadly serious. There’s a madman leading more than one country in this world, and America is no exception. Bush, no matter how the obsequious Blair talks him up, is crazed, maybe he always was, or maybe his previous alcoholism left him devoid of some crucial brain cells? Either way, he epitomizes much that the USA and the West has wrong with them, the selfishness, the greed, the smugness and the bullying.

Did Blair, Bush or Israel’s Sharon never hear or understand Bob Dylan’s lyrics in the song “God on our side”? And why did America learn nothing from such escapades as Vietnam? And part of this tragic farce is the blind western allegiance that favours Israel, alongside our disgraceful prejudice against all things Arab or Moslem. Israel is but a little state, with incommensurate influence in the world, it is beleaguered by blind Old Testament style hatreds, by a very divided, intransigent and retributive people. No paragons here! And yet they have such undue sway in world affairs.

One of the factors that really intrigues me is the influence of religions in our world. This applies as much towards Moslem, as the Judaic and Christian religions. In the case of Judaism, apparently God has decreed that people of Arabic descent are on a par with animals or insects, and as easily disposed of, -being little valued as human beings. This is so redolent of Nazi attitudes, -has nothing been learned? In the case of Muslims, something twisted has entered in; whereby some of its adherents have conjured that it’s somehow okay to slaughter, (with God’s grateful blessings), his creatures who hail from other parts of the globe who have Christian crosses or Stars of David, in place of crescent moons, atop their temples. Then there is the closer-to-home example of Christians. I ought to state here that I am of no one religion, -or of them all, so am not partisan to any. But I do respect the founders of all true religions. So it is with profound dismay that I see supposed followers of Christ, -such as Bush and Blair, behaving in a way that completely ignores the words of their professed teacher.

Christ never once endorsed bullying and aggressive warfare. He never said that one state or a single race was superior to all others. He never advocated murder as a way to solve human difficulties. Neither did he, (or any other saint worthy of the title), ever suffer from the dismissive arrogance and egotism that our present ‘statesmen’ display on a daily basis. I think he said things like ‘Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone’, and ‘Ignore the speck in your neighbor’s eye and behold the beam in your own’ etc. Far from warfare, Christ, (as Buddha et al), were strong advocates of peace and humility - and love for others. They were ardent protectors of the poor, the maligned and downtrodden, -were critical of materialism and recommended that we focus on spirituality as a way forwards.

If we look today at Western societies, where exactly can Christ’s teachings be seen being genuinely followed? In the case of the USA, we see the materially richest nation on earth, waving jingo-laden flags in the faces of the world’s poor and ill-used, with a paucity of compassion. We see them greedily guzzling the resources of this planet and tearing up ‘God’s creation’ like there is no tomorrow, and with no reverence for anything other than the dollar. We have the spectacle of the USA reiterating a nauseating patriotism that borders on an obsessive-compulsive psychiatric disorder. We see their (as well as our) youth sliding inexorably towards a way of life that is the very antithesis of everything that Christ recommended, -in terms of a drunken, drugged, sexual hedonism, where sport, shopping, over-eating and electronic amusements are the nearest they or we get to anything resembling devout dedication. And yet? And yet, the USA is full of this pride (a.k.a. ‘a sin’!) about itself, -it wallows daily in selfishness and self-congratulation, it has little respect for human life, unless that life happens to be Caucasian, affluent and with an American accent.

Raised as they have been on the entirely contaminated philosophy and values promulgated by Hollywood and the NRA, their guns equal instant ‘justice’ and ‘liberty’, disregarding all biblical commands, -including that very inconvenient ‘Thou shall not kill’ dictum. Can this really be called Christianity? Were Christ to appear amongst us today, can anyone seriously believe that he would quickly side up with America and all she does and is? Not a chance! He would, -as he did years ago, align himself with the sick, the poor, the downtrodden, and the spiritually pure of heart. He would praise those who work with compassion for humans and animals. He would castigate those who display all of what America and the West stand for today. In short, he would disown the ‘Christian’ USA and UK, and he would likely prefer to spend time with blind Moslem beggars, Columbian street children and Buddhist nuns, than our pompous churchmen, or the aggressive, duplicitous, self-aggrandizing world leaders, -much to the latter’s chagrin...

And one thing is absolutely certain. There is no way Christ would be advising Blair and Bush that they ought to go out and slaughter hundreds or thousands of Iraqi citizens in a senseless, meaningless war that solves nothing at all, but will undoubtedly evoke the (understandable) wrath of those people who the West has blatantly bullied, tricked and ignored for so many years, -causing yet more mayhem and loss of peaceful coexistence amongst God’s creatures in this world.

Heaven only knows what the present incumbent of the Whitehouse gleans from his daily bible readings! Has he got beyond the publishers preface yet? Certainly if he had read as far as the actual teachings of Christ, he might find out that Christianity centers on ‘Loving one's neighbor’, not lacerating him and her, (-and their rag-clad children), from the skies with devilishly designed million dollar armories. Bush would discern that distributing bread for the hungry is more truly the Christian way, than leaving landmines in the ground, which later blast the limbs off blameless shepherd children. He would also cut the crippling debts. The President of the USA and the Prime Minister of Britain ought to take on board that Christ’s message was ‘Suffer ye the little children’, not, ‘Ye ought to make the little children suffer’.

And Bush and Blair could usefully study passages that laud humility and readiness to bow to spiritual wisdom, -not self-righteous arrogance, mendacious diplomacy, and bombastic braggartism.

I don’t have privy information from God, nor a personal hotline, but from everything I can glean, I seem to discern that he or she sees our planet as but one entity, and has no personal favorites among the races. Apparently s/he loves us all equally, -be that black, yellow or white, and his greatest wish is that we all coexist peacefully, revering more that which is spiritual and alive, than worshiping dead material objects and things. We are but one family, called the human race, who, at present, are better at recalling ancient feuds, than remembering the words of the wise. Nietzsche once said: ‘The strong man is good at forgetting’.

Let us not forget that borders between countries are man-made, not God decreed. National flags, general’s uniforms, archbishop’s robes and brass nameplates boasting status, affixed to certain doors in Rome, Paris, Beijing, Baghdad, Whitehall and the Whitehouse are not dropped from heaven by God’s angels, but are made in factories by human hands and machines, -exactly like toilet rolls, baby wipes and pooper scoopers, -which are probably far more valuable to humanity than the former artifacts.

Humanity is in a mess because it pays more attention to Warner Brother epics, than the ethics of brotherhood and the epics of saints, -as once depicted by those who had better credentials to teach us the proper way to live, - (decently and peacefully), -than do the dollar-hungry moguls who own and control the shaping, yet warped, mass media.

So, as ever, the key issue is ‘Choice’. We have the choice to be swayed by the crazy and demented, -as did the people of Germany in WW2, or to decide that our reprehensible leaders be changed and that meritocracy ought rule the day, -electing those who promise genuine ethical reforms that benefit the whole world, not sleazy tax reforms that benefit only the already very affluent in some select mansions of the West...

As we vote, as we protest, as we write and speak out loudly, (or stay quiescently indoors, glued to our TV murders and fictions) so do we create either the prospect of future disasters, –involving pain and ruin; or the saner option, -that of a better world. let's choose, and act wisely and soon!

With hope... "

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6 Feb 2003 @ 08:24 by jazzolog : Reveille
Thanks for the wakeup call, Sandi. I like your entries...and especially when you're talking straight at us: writing from the hip, as it were.  

6 Feb 2003 @ 13:20 by sevenlamb : Talking is good : and not enough
I appreciate your talking, though. It's strong, and it's saying what we as a people need to hear. But little internet sites won't cut it. We need real media, real unity, and the ability to actually -support- each other. We need our cognitive and social birthrights returned to us, and you can believe they've been stolen. Most of us were specifically not introduced to them, or introduced only to mimics...

We must see that 3 to seven people, who've created and activated themselves as a cellular ring, can accomplish -anything- almost overnight.

Three small teams of terrorists recently changed our planet.

Let me say that the 'beam in our eye' will be removed, when we turn our moment to moment activity to the service of small rings of normal human heroes, intimately rescuing each other, and then our world.

We can and will change this planet overnight.

Smartmobs of nano-machines? Screw that. Smartmobs of heroic children, with powers never yet seen in modern times.

A ring of five people, committed to mutual and biospheric rescue and uplift, can accomplish in 6 months what a nation will fail to accomplish in 50 years.

And the stories that will rise from these rings will make our hollywood fictions look like a bad charcoal sketch on the back of a soggy matchbook cover...  

6 Feb 2003 @ 14:11 by spells : Agreed....talking is good but not enough
First of all, thanks Jazzolog, you are probably one of the very few who see the intent behind my posts and do not take offense personally.

To Sevelamb, I answer you that I do not only use strong words and web sites...I live day to day in the way that is natural and simple. I do NOT pay taxes to a military killing machine and so on. But enough about me, you wrote: "We can and will change this planet overnight." Can you explain how this is and will be done?....again flowery words do not change the world. May I ask: What are you doing?  

6 Feb 2003 @ 16:21 by sharie : what else?
Thank you for spells for sharing your love of humanity and truth with us. I have noticed that the madmen care not what we want or think. They have taken control of trillions of dollars of public funds, control of trillions of dollars in weaponry, while slaughtering defenseless human beings all for what?

When the madmen own Iraqi oil, OPEC will dissolve (what would be the point of OPEC trying to limit or control oil sales?), then the madmen will have all the world by the balls. What will happen economically to all of Europe? To all of Arabia? To Japan? And how will they respond?

The intention of the madmen is not for the well-being of others. Surely everyone can see that, and face that. What then? Surely everyone can see the answer there.

What then shall we do?

Stop *wanting* what they have.

Stop *wanting* their oil.

Stop *buying* their gasoline.

Stop empowering them.

Stop financing them.

Stop encouraging them.

Thank you spells for your kindness and care. As Rishi and I have both said over and over the handwriting is on the wall. The stage is ready for a global tragedy. It won't help to vote, spells. They *own* the computer programs that count the votes. I've posted notices on this on my newslog and more recently on Ming's.

Stop buying gasoline, cut way back on energy consumption in your homes. Stop buying pharmaceuticals, tobacco, chemicals... What else?

Live so happily that they'll want what you have.  

7 Feb 2003 @ 03:05 by sevenlamb @ : I am teaching and writing
And doing every single thing to rescue every single being I can, until I am dead. And I'm holding some keys that will change this world overnight...if anyone can listen, instead of judge...

Is that enough?  

7 Feb 2003 @ 09:51 by spells : Willing to Listen....
to what can be done to change the world overnight.....I only ask for concrete, straighforward, practical things and not riddles or pretty sayings, but I am open and all ears.  

7 Feb 2003 @ 13:00 by rishi : Hypnotised
Dear MM,

I happen to completely agree with Spells, especially since there is nothing in her post(s) which are untrue or unneeded. There is nothing "arrogant" there. "Busy" and Hypnotised" are aptly descriptive if not very diplomatic, considerate terms, which describe the average American, (and others) today. "Busy" means constantly enagaging a lifestyle that never has any time for serious self reflection, raising children, staying healthy, keeping aware and active regarding national and international events, spiritual practice and self knowledge, among many other essemtial things. "Hypnotised" means believing everything the television says simply because it says so, buying things you don't need because an Advertisement was witty, (and spending your life in debt to do it) and not significantly questioning the policies of government or the norms of society.

Given this, I think her post was downright kind and generous.  

7 Feb 2003 @ 13:26 by sevenlamb : Willing to listen
That's a good first step. Except the part where you tell what you are willing to accept. Some of the toys we need are riddles, but merely talking about them is suicidal.

Empty your cup. Taste my tea. I'll empty mine and taste yours. Nothing to lose, but half-full cups make bad tea.

Some 'pretty sayings' are the very sources of human character, neglect them, and we're collectively dead. Make them impossible to credential, same outcome.

But here's an instructionally concrete thing you can do. And it's best done in a small ring of playful and heartful people, preferably including children.

Pretend you're an alien. You've just landed on Earth. Make clear sentient contact with an animal community that lives near you. Continue the contact as though it was the single most important thing (in a very important game). Forget your human ideas about animals, contact them instead. Forget all your human ideas. Pretend everything is totally and complexly interaconnected, and sentient, and that all things are constantly expressing this sentience. Locate and experience the sentience, and the scales of sentience in the world around you. This will lead you to discover what the hell is going on in our largely hypnotized human your own unique way, not mine, or someone else's. This is really very empowering, and can literally change our world overnight.

Can we -act- beyond theories and debate? Can we agree? Can we re-establish unityGames?

I can.

more here:  

7 Feb 2003 @ 15:34 by spells : An alien to society
Dear sevenlamb,

There's a good spirit about your words and suggestions, which are clearly useful for the world today. It's funny you'd mention pretending to be an alien, because I AM essebtially an alien in this society, and already commune with the animals and plants of what I call "the Earth-mind". I've spent months at a time living in the woods out of a tent, and many more than that living in a van in natural areas, such as now. It seems to me that those who are natural need not pretend that they have no "human" bias or preconceived ideas about nature or reality. Such persons, myself included, are naturally connected already. I think the point here is, however, that this is the very furthest thing modern society is focused upon, which includes the majority of the 6 billion human beings living on this planet today. It is to them I advocate a complete change of lifestyle and daily values, away from materialism, consumerism and artificiality, and toward the natural, spiritual, simple and efficient life. Unfortunately, people today are more inclined to believe the hype of a television commercial then any admonitions to live simply or value spiritual things first. This is why a sometimes harsh-sounding approach is necessary to challenge their heavily conditioned world view.

Certainly I'll entertain such ways as you or anyone might suggest. But I already live such a life, and would recommend to you reading documents like the Survivalists' Guide for the New Millennium, at which is literally FULL of the philosophy and practicality of this natural, spiritual lifestyle. I know it works, because I live it every day.  

7 Feb 2003 @ 15:40 by spells : Average
Dear MM,

I don't think you are answering the points I made, or which rishi just made either. These are valid issues, presented in a fashion which is suited for the modern world of plastic coated indulgence and 30-year amortized payments. What your reaction shows me is that rather than focusing on the issues and solutions presented, you are instead taking issue with their author(s), which is missing the point(s) altogether. You are not at all alone in this. Such reactions are the "average" emotionally-charged response in denial of the modern reality. This is EXACTLY the reason why I've written the way I have, so that the majority is coaxed out of the hypnotised norm. Nothing else gets the attention of people who don't really want to change how they live, regardless of the logic presented.  

7 Feb 2003 @ 21:23 by rishi : Being Human
MM...there's nothing I need to know about someone who does not honestly address posts or points made. There's nothing I need to know about people who like to make excuses for themselves as though they were accused of something to start with. Your name was never mentioned here, yet you respond as though it was.

Obviously, like others you feel a burning need to justify your lack of a sane life, with a lot of mediocre talk and ill-defined niceties. Guess what...the world is about to collapse on its own weight and hypocrisy, due largely to such nonsense as I've heard from people like you and Cho and others, who have no answers, no methods, no practice, no logic and no reason to shoot down the few lucid voices in this world who rightly criticize what is wrong, just to make your pitiful way of doing basically nothing to change the world, feel better.  

7 Feb 2003 @ 23:07 by strydg : so many rishis
so much judgement.  

7 Feb 2003 @ 23:32 by Bee @ : Defense of Reality
Each one us is entitled to our own belief system. mmborders makes valid points: you rishi, shouldn't point fingers at us, judging and assuming we are all the same and stupid. There are many answers and many solutions to world problems and personal problems, some even on this site. All is not doom and gloom. Most members who come here are New Age. This is after all a site to change civilization to something new. Not the same old dreary totalitarian dictiates. Many people have schedules where exercise and good balanced diet, stretching, entertainment, work,etc. all sorts of things are worked in and followed through a days activities. Some people are organized.
Sandi, I think poverty sucks. Regular income takes it away. Each one of us is responsible for our own condition. Self control is ever so important as when you practice it. One of my philosophies is:" you pay you get, you don't pay you don't get."  

8 Feb 2003 @ 00:47 by rishi : Defense of insanity
Bee, you are another complete idiot with nothing worthwhile to say. An asshole as a matter of fact. Your views are quite insane just as are most New Age lame-brain beliefs, which don't hold a candle to what's really going on in the world. Pull your head out of the sand you comatose embecile.
Wake up fool! Millions of people are about to die and you're likely to be one of them.

You and strydg won't be so dammed smug and arrogant when the SHIT really hits the fan the likes of you keep twirling. Remember that when we're in the midst of WWIII asshole(s), and thank your daddy Bush for your misery.  

8 Feb 2003 @ 01:34 by simpleman : DAMNED IF WE DO, DAMNED IF WE DON'T
Here we go again, arguing over what will save the world. As I have tried to say before concerning this topic, there is no simple solution. It took years and years to get to where we are today and it will take years and years to change it. As I see it, we can do nothing and probably see a world war, or as some suggest we stop paying taxes, stop buying what we don't need to survive, attack the situation by bringing down the corporations and government. Reality is neither will save the world, as a matter of fact both will destroy us. I am not in denial, nor am I making excuses, but Spells and Rishi, and others who choose to follow the survivalist guide, thats ok for you, but if 6 billion people did it, we would have more chaos than a world war, or at least as much. If you can not see this, then you are not being very realistic about the scope of our problems. I don't have the answers, but please don't insult the intelligence of those who disagree with you, because yours is not the answer either.  

8 Feb 2003 @ 12:13 by b : Defense of Reality #2
Rishi, you immediately resort to the last defense of the debater, name calling. You aptly title your response, defense of insanity. There you are correct. Dogmatic, doctrinaire, you seek to impose and dictate your will and reality of fear upon us. You Rishi are a control freak yet demonstrate you can't control your self. Ignorance is the enemy of intelligence. Intelligence that you insult.


8 Feb 2003 @ 13:43 by rishi : Defense of Reality should know better than to make rational-sounding arguments when you and I both know you don't mean a word of it. I'm sure you recall our last "discussion" about "patriotism" and the world-dominating monster government whose ass you are only too pleased to kiss. I sent you that "Confessions of an American Ex-Patriot" article at least twice, and all the while you continued to pretend having not recieved it. You ran to the Mediation room here like a scared little girl, talking about how this "rishi" had the sheer gall to send an article to your email address. Oh my, what outrage! Pathetic. Of course you wont comment on fact or logical presentations. That's because, like the majority of the American public, there's absolutely nothing honest or truthful about you. You're a political and social parasite who offers nothing to the body of man excpet excuses and more illness. You don't have any intelligence to insult fool!

In my experince, the only way to engage a focused conversation with people like you is to just spill the beans from the start. Those beans are labeled, "calling a spade a spade". Your cheap, hollow admonitions about "imposing fear" is just so much new age, air headed bullshit. Fear and destruction are upon us, regardless of your ostrich-like cowardice to the contrary. Saying such things is incredibly new-age cliche' and is a convenient excuse for you and others like you, to take no responsibility for what is happening in the world. Clearly, if people like you have their way, the whole mess will only accelerate beyond measure. Your apathy and false spirituality are nothing but a facade, and this you know for yourself all too well.  

8 Feb 2003 @ 13:50 by rishi : I'm amazed rishi
You shouldn't be. Your statements here have been another case in point. You know very well that you're not doing anything to really help the're just another excuse-making, over-domesticated, over medicated excuse for a human being. I gained this conclusion by your defensiveness to earlier obviously true posts, which you saw fit only to try to tear down by rationalizing your lack of right living and right action. You took offense repeatedly because of this, so don't dump any bull on me about being amazed. I'm just being could stand a healthy dose of that. If you were really concerned with these issues, then you'd add something constructive instead of acting as though everything posted here is secretly designed only to rip down mmborders.

"Thank you strydg, Bee and simpleman for responding to rishi and attempting to explain my concerns"?????

What an awful political smirk that barely conceals, behind this facade of discussing something rationally. They didn't attempt to explain anything, and neither have you. All of you have nothing to explain except your lack of right action in the face of world destruction. Cowardice is what I call it.  

8 Feb 2003 @ 14:56 by spells : Honesty?
Thank you Rishi, for your honesty. You are the one of the few who says it like it is and for good intentions of educating and showing people they must get Real! Not one of you answered any of the questions in the original only want to defend your lack of caring and cover up your insincerity. I've got news for you, your true colors are showing, your lack of honesty, and guess what....this is how the world operates and just look where it is leading us destruction. Oh sorry, is that too "fear filled" or negative? Again I say, call it what you like, I call it the truth!  

8 Feb 2003 @ 15:00 by sharie : The world IS about to collapse
Bee, that's a sad defense of *reality*. What you refer to as *reality* is an artificially-imposed culture which is suffocating the life and spirit out of humanity.

Poverty of spirit, poverty of mind, poverty of conviction in truth and peace... that's what sucks... it's sucking the very life out of humanity. I live WAY below *poverty* level and my life is wonderful and beautiful, happy and healthy.

I agree with Simpleman: "As I see it, we can do nothing and probably see a world war, or as some suggest we stop paying taxes, stop buying what we don't need to survive, attack the situation by bringing down the corporations and government." That IS the answer, but to think the world would collapse if everyone lived simply is a mistake. Billions of people live simply... If you believe the *economy* will topple, you are right. The *economy* along with all its theorists is already in the toilet, already serving only the super-rich, while exploiting our natural resources (our life support system) and exploiting the world population simultaneously. Do NOT believe the experts' lies about the economy. It is a false economy. It is a fraud, a deception, and an extortion of your health, your happiness, and your well-being. The *economy* is a lie. Do not believe the experts or the scholars on what the economy needs. The U.S. is trillions of dollars in debt. If the economists are so knowledgeable, how come our economy is in such bad shape? It is a false economy, based on false assumptions and false theories which serve only the super-rich while exploiting everyone and everything else. Do not believe that what they tell you is true.

And I see Rishi is showing himself to be a true Rishi by giving just what is needed, so different from his usual self I burst out laughing. He says what he says out of the right place, and I'm shocked that I (the one totally opposed to insulting remarks) would say this... rather than feel offended like I usually do.

If you are living a conventional life, you are feeding the monster that's destroying us all.  

8 Feb 2003 @ 16:53 by simpleman : I DO THINK WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING
about corporations and governments, but putting them out of business and accelerating thousands of people into unemployment with no government resources is NOT THE ANSWER. I would not want to live in a world where thousands or even millions of people were doing anything trying to survive. KILL OR BE KILLED is not my idea of an answer. Is it really yours????  

8 Feb 2003 @ 18:38 by rishi : Doing something

Yes, absolutely we have to do something, but let's think this through carefully. Although what you mentioned about billions of people already living "simply", (and in many cases in true poverty) it is to the greed of the ultra wealthy that I/we are directing much of our words here. Due to the wrong values of materialism, people are suffering the world over.

I don't recall the exact statistic, but something like 95% percent of the wealth in the world is focused in the hands of 1 percent of the population. (This is not even to mention the fact that the population as a whole values those same greedy goals, it's just that they're less effective at fulfilling them) Those hands are largely corporate, and regardless of their wealth, corporations are heavily dependant upon "consumer confidence and spending" to maintain their incredibly inefficent beaurocracies. Putting them out of business is EXACTLY what is needed, since they are literally telling the governments of the world what to do, including going to insane wars.

People have the misconception that they need corporate handouts in the form of "benefits" and "employment" since they've forgotten how to live in a mutally effective, independant fashion. How soon we forget as a culture that the tribe is an effective unit, and not necessarily just in the bush.

Consider this;

If people were not so selfish today, they could easily live, say three families or persons per mansion-like house, using literally one-third of the current resources, and spending only one third of their money. Then there's living in a vehicle, which sounds like "homelessness" to most, simply because they've been trained to be elite consumer snobs. Growing as much of your own food as possible is also of great merit. Re-using things and buying used items is far better than keeping up with the Jones'.

Also, there is the matter of supply and demand. What we demand with our expenditures is exactly what will stimulate vegetables for instance instead of the usual pesticide enriched variety. The same is true of cars, houses, clothes, health and beauty products...all of it. Most of these corporations are producing megatons of pollution while stripping the entire Earth, just for the sake of 40-feature microwave ovens instead of a simple wood stove, (for instance), or to make little chrome plated ego boosters for a bored public. We actually NEED very little of that nonsense, but this isn't the message of TV is it?  

8 Feb 2003 @ 23:59 by simpleman : I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING
When I question what your saying I'm picturing in my head all the people who are addicted to the materialistic world. I can't picture them simply saying "well I guess we'll just have to live in the car, and grow our own veggies for food. What I picture is them robbing and stealing from those who have, and surviving like animals. Sure, for those who understand and are willing to do what you purpose, life would be simple, and probably free of stress, and perhaps tranquil, but were talking about society as a whole, and if you think society is out of control now, how do you think it would look if many more were jobless, and homeless, and without some kind of support. Perhaps you remember the riots in L.A. when Rodney King was beaten. Now picture that scene all around the world. Hell, strike me dead now, it would be kinder.

p.s. Unfortunately alot of people are selfish, and could care less about you or me, and that is a REAL part of society that will not disappear.  

9 Feb 2003 @ 00:02 by b : Defense of reality
Hahahahaha, rishi you lie! Sharie, I'm surprised at you putting words in my mouth that I didn't say. I have always loved you here Sharie, so I know you don't hate me. Rishi, who knows me not, hates me. Well rishi, you know what New Agers say: what goes around, comes around. All of that hate that you put out. That's really what the up coming wars are all about. Hate. You would think that you would do well if you weren't a coward with all of that fear.  

9 Feb 2003 @ 00:40 by b : Sorry Simpleman
I had to respond to rishi. I hope he answers your question of the results of the alternative society he wishes on us. All because of hate. You can not command love.  

9 Feb 2003 @ 07:26 by rishi : You cannot command love...
...but you CAN start by changing your own life, rather than making excuses for yourself and the social norms of the world. Still pay taxes for bombs MM?...I thought so. Not once have you really addressed even a single point made on this news log or on Spells news log, about society or what to do about it. You had no reply to me when I answered your sarcastic question of "what to do" weeks ago, which shows how much you really care. Nor do most people ever bother to address these issues rationally, if at all, unless their egos are in some way challenged. This thing about love and hate is a lot of side-stepping and not an honest address of this conversation. Love truth rather than excuse-making egotism.

As for Bee's comments, I realize that there's just too much nuttiness there to address seriously. "Rishi hates me" is sad. Take another prozac Bee, and get some rest. You don't ever comment on issues brought forward unless there's some juicy personal angle to capitalize on anyway. You're out of your league here.

Simpleman, your recent posts should be taken seriously, as they are obviously meant seriously. That's good to see....someone understanding the importance in a change of lifestyle and social norms, rather than just a change in theories or the regurgitation of pop-culture, new age "psychology". I've written 95 articles and about 650 pages of in-depth, well considered material on such subjects over the period of many years. All of this is posted on the WMS website for free and explicitly without copyright. Yet regardless of this tremendous and freely given resource on spiritual practice and social change, I could count on one hand the number of people I've encountered who take any of it seriously by living it out day to day. Given this, one develops an eye for the patterns of denial and bullshit which people put up, as smoke screens to avoid responsibility. Having been extremely diplomatic for years, I realized that barbarians do not respect handouts or good will, just as the mean dog will usually not be deterred by a kind word or an outstretched hand. What IS respected is a show of strength that does not sacrifice truth to make someone feel cozy in their comfort zone. People resist change even when their current norm is sheer misery and madness, and anyone who suggests that there is a better way to live is immediately treated with both suspicion and malice. No service is done to such persons who respect basically nothing except serving themselves, by catering to their egos through niceties or new age gibberish. This has been a very hard lesson for me to learn, since it is contrary to my nature. I want to be kind and mutually progressive, but this is a world of mental illness where arbitrary personalities come first, subjects and objective knowledge come second to last, and definitive action the last of all. I now show respect where respect is both due and earned, not automatically. I respect nothing more than the truth lived out day to day.

What you said about people not caring is true, and that many are indeed so selfish that they would, (and do) gladly sacrifice anyone else around them to gain any advantage. I forsee similar outcomes of riots in the streets and people behaving like raving wolves in competition over a can of food. But this is because they don't understand the merits of cooperation, or of spiritual practice. Admittedly, most do not want to understand, but that doesn't change the facts any.

When we speak of real social change of any kind, we must also speak of personal change with the same degree of intensity. I'm sure you realize that all change starts with individuals, and this is no platitude, or happy-go-lucky new age catch phrase. There is just no other way to change the world. The fact is, the current norm of greed, selfish concern above all else, worshipping the dollar and the "success" it supposedly defines in life, is the very thing that is causing such global unrest we're speaking of. Stopping these social norms isn't going to cause chaos in the's the only thing that can prevent it. As a planet we're almost in complete chaos now, so there's no time left to dally or indulge. Furthermore, there's nothing to lose in doing so.  

9 Feb 2003 @ 12:10 by simpleman : MY FINAL POST TO THIS LOG!
I think we can all agree that a change is needed. What seems to be our problem is, what constitutes the change. Each and every one of us has our own ideas as to how to change the world, and I will not disrespect anybody elses idea. I may not agree, not I may try to explain why, but I try to maintain some degree of respect in doing so. WMS has presented ideas, some of which I believe, and some that I don't. When an idea is suggested, it should be examined, and always have the capacity to be revised. When an idea is as complex as changing the world, there is no one single way to accomplish it, no right way and no wrong way. We cannot pretend to know what the results of change will be, or how the process will unfold. So, everyone, please continue to do that which you feel is the right thing for you, but at the same time be very observant, and revise what you do if need be.

p.s. We may all be idiots for thinking we can change the world, but if thats the case, lets be kind, peaceful, and loving idiots in the process.  

9 Feb 2003 @ 13:21 by b : generalities and non specifics
make for confusion. A tiny, brief engagement. Nothing to get settled on this thread, nor memorable. Ciao.  

9 Feb 2003 @ 16:48 by rishi : Paying taxes
Ok, how about a suggestion for future reference, MM. When you enter a conversation or a line of posts, try engaging the subject matter instead of your emotional reaction to it. Then there will be no need for "conclusions".

Simpleman, your post is regressive and not useful. You claim that world change is not something that can be clearly approached, but don't say why other than noting it is "complex". Nonsense. You said the same thing about the Survivalists' Guide without ever reading a page of it. Sounds like your attention span is about used up. "p.s. We may all be idiots for thinking we can change the world, but if thats the case, lets be kind, peaceful, and loving idiots in the process." Actually, the idiots are those who think they can't change the world, since they are not even capable, (willing) to change themselves. There is no right way or wrong way? What pure bullshit that is. Read my latest post in my news log of "The Rise and Fall of the New Age".  

9 Feb 2003 @ 17:56 by spells : What is important??......
To Everyone who took time to post comments....

Taken from Rishi's latest newslog.."The Rise and Fall of the New Age"

Of course, even a very small child can clearly see that you have to focus on what is wrong, before you can effect any remedy to make it right. For instance, if you’re hungry and needing nutrition that means you need to eat, not meditate the feeling away. If you have a splinter in your foot, you don’t say, “well, that’s just not my reality, so I choose to focus on higher things” thereby letting infection set in. The same is even more true of the world situation, and the New Age paradigm is wholly unprepared to adequately address it. There is nothing illusory about the pain or love felt while in physical form, nor is life an empty dream devoid of any purpose other than what we assign it. There is also nothing illusory about the destructive nature of government corruption, environmental pollution or a stress-filled, unnatural lifestyle. What IS illusory is modern humanity’s idea of what life is all about. Society imagines that life is about greed, ego and the making of as much money as possible. The REALITY is that life is about evolution and spiritual progress. The New Age has confused the fact that society’s ideas are an illusion, with the nature of reality itself. Through this bad judgement they’ve concluded that there is no reality, and that the world of atoms and molecules is just a shadow play for their personal amusement.

When a tree falls in the forest it doesn’t matter who is around to hear it…it still makes a sound. That sound we hear in the distance is our own looming extinction, and such admonitions as, “life is an illusion” is the very height of the absurd, the arrogant and the destructively naïve. There is in truth NO division between social and political concerns and that of spiritual practice. The REAL spiritual practitioner knows this and takes responsibility for the truth in ALL areas of life. In essence, EVERYTHING which happens in this world and in our lives has spiritual bearing, and must be treated as such through practical, every-day measures."

Are we so self important that we can totally miss important points and facts made and still boil a discussion down to "will against will", and "I will protect and build my ego, no matter what it takes?" Obviously yes. as Rishi stated in the his newslog.."Society imagines that life is about greed, ego and the making of as much money as possible." It is quite obvious by most of the 35 posts made that "ego" is the main issue here, not the fall of society, bombing millions of people, wrong values or wasteful living. Do I sound angry? Yeah, yeah call it anything you like to save your ego butt, but the it is the truth. I will take the time to point out speciifics...

MM - you would not have even posted if you didn't feel insulted by the 'hypnotized lives" statement. You didn't care anything about any points made, except what you felt was about YOU. Then in the end you admit to living simply, well why are you quiet about it? Not the accepted norm? Are you living in this way because of a spiritual cause or because you were dealt an unlucky hand by society's standards? If you felt strongly about simple spiritual living why not talk about these points and elaborate on the importance of such a focus? Instead you only comment on what you feel will save face.....shallow and not going anywhere is all is what that is.

BBee- yeah you bow out when you see that there is no face saving on your part. You seem to not give a rat's ass for what is going on in the world.

Sevenlamb-what are you doing, not in preaching, but doing to save humanity from extinction. I'm sorry, and with all due respect, it sounds like new age bs to me.

Scotty- (from Rishi's newslog) you were only concerned with being called a moron. Did you read the original newslog at all?

Simpleman-you seem to care to a certain degree, but it appears that as soon as it is time for you to actually make some changes and take some responsiblity, you give the old new age cliche' of supreme wimpiness. It is not about what answer is right to some people and what answer is correct for others, it is about finding out what the truth is and what will bring this world and society back on the track of progresivenss and evolution. Time is running out, and Rishi took time to explain and talk to you about it, and as soon as you either lose interest (short attention span..a symptom of too much TV), or see the implications of the changes that are needed, you say "MY FINAL POST TO THIS LOG!" Ok, so what do you suggest? What have you meditated on, written about and cared enough about to think through to come up with a solution that will change the course of things. Just because the change that is needed is difficult or in a different direction than one is used to, does not mean it is not the answer. It only shows how far off from our true purpose here on earth we are.

I will sum up by saying that not many (Sharie, not included, I thank you for your honesty and clarity) care at all for what is going on in the world, or even in their own backyards, but they will swear up and down that they are spiritual. Well I don't buy it anymore, and to be honest I don't see much difference in the people here on NCN and the average American corporate robot.

9 Feb 2003 @ 18:40 by simpleman : SPELLS AND RISHI
I tried to end my participation to this log because I didn't see it accomplishing anything. It was simply attack, attack, defend, defend, but you two are relentless. You want truth, ok, here it is, and I hope you can handle it. You run and hide from society and then try to tell everyone how to change society. I think you've been away to long. If you truely believe that drug dealers, and addicts, or all the criminals, or those who are living in poverty are going to listen or believe that which you preach is going to save them, your further away from reality than I thought. They will laugh in your face, and if you call them the names you've chosen to call people who responded to this log, they would kill you right then. You don't listen to anything anyone has to say, you simply deny they exist because they question your ideas. Let me ask you a question? Are you capable of changing? If everyone you are trying to change is as unbending as you are, how are you planning on making them change?  

9 Feb 2003 @ 20:47 by rishi : Poor Simpleman
Having "tried to end your particpation here" and failed, now you have nothing else to say but this pathetic nonsense, after all we have talked about? How many specific, concrete examples do you need?'re already being led by the hand, and then you go on about not knowing what to do. Why do you go on with this pretense, all the while intentionally ignoring what has been carefully said here? Are we capable of changing? What kind of a question is that....we're talking about change, we live the changes mentioned...the rest you obviously don't want to know. What changes would you suggest, for us and the world? Oh, that's right, you don't know and you're not going to bother've got better things to do like paying off your credit cards.

Do you really expect us to believe that you or anyone else here is really that stupid? I for one don't buy that...I don't believe anyone here is REALLY THAT stupid, they just pretend to be in order to esacpe the points made, which are both obvious and inescapable. Attack-defend? Is that all you see here, and not valuable, necessary information? Even a worm is capable of more learning behavior than you are displaying.

I couldn't care less what criminals, drug dealers or the poor believe...crisis in the extreme is upon us all. If you don't see that then you must either be a complete moron, or have the blindness of the utterly corrupted and over-domesticated. Time to make the necessary decisions! Obviously you do not take these matters seriously. You must imagine that you can still get away with telling lies to others and yourself, still deceiving like everybody else does, still living a social lie called consumerism. Why? Not because you're stupid, but because you are a fucking coward without an ounce of backbone in your miserable sorry self.

We don't listen to anything others have to say? You have nothing to say except lame excuses! What is there to listen to, other than the whining of a little self-pitying whelp of a man, a nutcase, a homemaker who'd rather talk about leather and her feelings than the world scene, a new age double-speaker, and a guy who calls himself "stray dog" because he lacks the imagination to think of something better. What's your message? You have absolutely nothing here to offer, and all your energy is spent trying to find a back door to escape to.

Do you people really want to know why the world is in such a mess...why the story of history is played over and over again until the end of humanity? Want to really know why humanity is about to go extinct? Because the world "leaders", the presidents, prime ministers, congressmen, religious pundits, media talking heads think just like you do. They have the very same pathetic selfish concerns as you and can't see the forest for the trees, because they're too damned arrogant, insane and self absorbed.  

9 Feb 2003 @ 23:32 by strydg : no need to wait-
rishits the fan.  

9 Feb 2003 @ 23:34 by simpleman : RISHI, YOU AND GEORGE BUSH WOULD MAKE
GOOD BUDDIES. You are both set in your ways and no matter what anyone says, your way is right. Its also to bad you don't give a shit about people who are hurting right now, for they are the ones who need a change the most. The more you talk, the more your true character shows. Perhaps your expressing all the anger that has been building up inside since you escaped from society. You appearently don't really care about anybody but yourself, and perhaps your followers. This time I really am leaving this log because, well, I have more important THINGS to do with my time than listen to you have a verbal spasm because you can't handle criticism.  

10 Feb 2003 @ 14:50 by sharie : Eyes Opened Wider
Thank you Rishi for fully explaining your position and intention.

And thank you Simpleman for forcing the truth: "...about corporations and governments... putting them out of business and accelerating thousands of people into unemployment with no government resources is NOT THE ANSWER. I would not want to live in a world where thousands or even millions of people were doing anything trying to survive. KILL OR BE KILLED is not my idea of an answer. Is it really yours???? "

You're right, the vast majority of the public is not prepared for what they are about to endure. This is precisely why I continue to encourage everyone to prepare for what is headed our way.

Control of trillions of dollars of public funds has been seized by murdering thieves, the *leader* of which sat and read to school children while airline jets slaughtered thousands of people, and now preparations are underway for the slaughter of millions of defenseless people in Iraq so they can seize the oil... does anyone not see the domino effect? Do you think they will stop with their control over Iraq? Do you not think Iran will be next, and then Libya, Algeria, Syria, and that necessary peace-keeping mission in Israel? Do you not think they will continue onward? Do you think they will let Saudi Arabia stand? Pakistan? North Korea? China? What will cause them to stop? Their good sense? Their decency? They have none. Surely you can see into the minds of these madmen who have made themselves well-known over the past several decades (outlined in my newslog entry "What is Sacred?") Decades of slaughtering millions and millions of human beings. Their story has been told over and over, and now they so boldly go without even attempting to create a believable deception.

Teenage boys in the poor housing projects in Chicago, New York, D.C., LA, San Diego, Miami, Baltimore, and other cities are being lured into the army, navy, and marines with paychecks of $1,200 a month and an *adventure*. The bush will stop when he has Iraq? How sure are you? What will be the consequences? Will you not do everything in your power to stop this? Will you not stop feeding this monster your money? Yes, Simpleman, I thank you for forcing the truth that hell is about to break loose, and I say we must prepare now.

Thank you Spells for offering your newslog for this discussion. I'm grateful to you for your comments and insights.  

10 Feb 2003 @ 18:17 by rishi : Eyes Opened Wider
Sharie, you've said it expertly and brilliantly. I would say your post is perfect, and so exactly to the point, with questions so inescapable, that even a small child could not help but see the truth of them.

Regardless of this however, getting people to respond intelligently to this global crisis, that must some day wash over them like a great tidal wave, is like pulling the teeth of chickens or raising the dead. It doesn't matter to these knotheads how many specifics you quote or how logical or well researched your argument is, or how many daily indications are around for all to clearly see, that what you're saying is absolutely so.

What matters to them is only and entirely how they look to others, and how they feel as "consumers".

In the end, the insanity that infects the childish minds of most people here and elsewhere, will not allow them to respond matter of factly, logially or truthfully. Truly they are like animals or little children gone bad, and there's not an ounce of sincerity in more than one in 300 people in the general public. They'd sooner let their own children die in war without saying a word, or their neighbors falsely accused and imprisoned, or their own miserable, medicated selves seiged within their own homes, before ever making that decision to get their minds and lives straightened out. They hide behind the excuse that they're being "personally attacked" as though that could possibly EVER be more important than the facts and conclusions being presented. They do this so as to divert attention away from the subjects at hand, and the whole thing reeks of such dishonesty that it is sickening. Oh, let me guess...I'm "just being angry or insensitive". Never mind the points made or that the whole world is about to self destruct. What's important here to these people is HOW THEY FEEL about it, not how it really is.

Sad and truly pathetic.  

14 Feb 2003 @ 14:26 by sharie : Feelings and Illusions
Thank you Matthew, but people are bashing me, accusing me of being a terrorist, striking fear into the hearts of peace-loving innocents. I'm accused of being "left-brained". Well, a left-brain dominant person doesn't write several musicals and hundreds of songs, doesn't create a series of innovative architectural designs, and doesn't have beautiful, loving relationships with their friends and neighbors and children... left-brained people are too left-brained to care about emotions or spirituality or kindness.

It hurts to be insulted and accused of things that have nothing to do with me. I suppose I should consider the source, and pay no attention to that man who uses a snake as his symbol and pats himself on the back for being highly evolved and so heavenly that nothing can shake him (on another newslog).

Thank you Sandi for sharing your perspective on spirituality and peace, and thank you for your commitment to truth and loving kindness.  

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