|New Civilization News: My Rant: Removing The Cancer – Is That The Solution?|
23 comments21 Sep 2004 @ 23:44 by jmarc : no it's not joyful
but truth isn't all joy, is it? You speak the truth, well reasoned. Now look at those who howl the loudest, and see how thick they are with the weeds.
22 Sep 2004 @ 00:19 by nemue : Finding a way to reason
The toughest thing is to find a way to reason in our attempt to find a clear view for ourselves. I expect to be dumped on big time but at least we are free (or so we think) to speak 'our' truth...take away the emotion and ideals - seek facts...
22 Sep 2004 @ 01:09 by bushman : Hmm
I have no trouble removing weeds, but I can tell you this, if you use a weed wacker, all you do is spread the seed, you use sprays, you kill everything you hit with it. You must gentaly remove the weed by the root, and not rip it out violently, because that spreads the seed too. Better to pull the weeds one by one before they make seed.
22 Sep 2004 @ 03:54 by nemue : But you are removing the problem..
Not a problem with this but your message is - remove the weed. Take action, it is just down to the type of action you take.
22 Sep 2004 @ 13:00 by spiritseek : ?
You posted a very good question. Part of me says yes to stripping away at the weed but another says this; This life is short and not our true everlasting life. Any life that dies gets what they deserve in the afterlife. What will we get depends on our actions now,its a hard decision to make when we see so much killing,but to kill the killers is in question? If Jesus story is true or not I do believe that it is better to die from a killer then to kill the killer and therefore become a killer. Thats the spiritual loving part of me that speaks this,there is the weaker more outraged part of me that says to eliminate the killers. The stoning comes to mind also from the bible,if anyone be without sin then let them cast the first stone. I am not without sin,but what degree does that change when death is a result? There should never be degrees in sin or wrong doing,when you judge others you place yourself above them. I am still weak and would probably kill to protect others if the time ever came to decide.
22 Sep 2004 @ 13:06 by spiritseek : Taking action
If getting the killers rounded up and giving them some spiritual healing that they need would solve the problem. We just haven't found a way to cleanse someone of their afflictions.Is it not for us to do anyways? That perhaps will be taken care of on the other side of the veil. Just thinking about all this and writing down my thoughts is all.
22 Sep 2004 @ 17:53 by bushman : The Bible,
is clear, the 10 comandments are common sence rules, and there is a difference between killing and comiting murder. The story of Asaw explains this. Its a story about twins, one good one evil, god suposedly says in this story that he hated this evil child in his mothers woomb. But it is just a story in an old book. There is a high powered group of people that want to off 5.5 billion people without getting thier own hands bloody, these people just ceate the situations of mayhem, they are murderers, not killers, and the people that just try to be, are none the wiser about it, they are the pawns. Forced to kill to live. We do this as a human race, back to the weeds, as you are the god of the garden you grow. You kill to keep the diversity in your garden, you don't murder indiscriminetly, and alot of times the roots of the enemy are entwined with the roots of your friends, so there is always the chance that when you remove the offending weed it damages the ones you try to save from the invasive evil ones. I found one easy way to get weeds out of a lawn with out ripping them out or spraying them, what I do is over feed them, since most trouble maker weeds can survive on little food and water, it works to give them more of what they are fighting for, it causes a situation that causes the weeds to burn out, or changes the situation where the 2 plants can compeet fairly, the weeds will find they are crouded out, and the seeds of them cant take root there anymore. All living things, right now, compeet for the spoils of life. All we need to do is feed and water everyone the same and let nature take its course, then we will know the weed and remove it, kill it, but not murder it. It is nature that shows us there is a time to kill to survive, nature dosnt murder to survive. And a weed is just another plant that is in a place where the god of the garden dosnt want it. We are the gods of the garden called Earth, we just need to do our jobs and feed and work the garden, things will find thier balance by nature. I seen it happen before, I plant my garden, and the rodents come in and eat it, they get too fat to run from the hawk. So again the trick is to plant lots of what you want, the enemys will get full, and not have the drive to eat all thats left of the garden. It's natural to kill for survival, its not natural to murder for it. And thats what this group running our garden is doing, they murder to stay in power. What they do is feed the ones they like and srarve the ones they hate, thats murder. What does a plant do when its threatened by death? It makes lots of seed. A last ditch effort to survive. Most people dont know that the mass of roots is equil to the mass of folage that you see above ground. We have the tech to feed and water everyone in this garden, but as long as the few people in power are in control of the fruits of our labors, as long as they are the ones getting the majority of those fruits, there will always be a weed problem. 90% of the problem can be solved with just food and clean water. This is the action we should take. :}
22 Sep 2004 @ 21:53 by nemue : The Motive
For many millions around the world the solution is food, clean water and education and the freedom from exploitation. I so agree with this and it saddens me that greed rules and that people can care so little about other human beings. Those individual personal deeds, greed and the quest for power results in the death of so many. For the perpetrators their day of judgement like mine will come. I do believe that we can reason with greedy people (it takes time granted) and people who desire only power over others. In essence these people arent in the majority of cases driven by hate there is another motivator.
For others however their cause has little to do with building a better life and therefore lack of food, clean water or education isnt the answer. For some this is about hate and belief. We see this in our own cities today and that is the scary part. How do we relate to and deal with people who are consumed with hate. Who hate us for what we are, for the life we chose to lead for our beliefs. How do we live side by side with people who dont want to accept that we can all lead a harmonious life each sharing a different view but all leading a life of civility, compassion and honour?
22 Sep 2004 @ 22:11 by vibrani : Thanks for sharing, Nemue
your thoughts - I am in agreement with all of it.
23 Sep 2004 @ 01:08 by spiritseek : Good question Nemue
How do we live side by side with people who dont want to accept that we can all lead a harmonious life each sharing a different view but all leading a life of civility, compassion and honour?
I don't have an answer but I do have a past life where I did kill a few to save the many but lost part of myself in the process. I know we are in the majority who wish a better and equal world for all. Perhaps joining forces and minds something can be decided upon on what to do.
23 Sep 2004 @ 01:50 by craiglang : Shame and Rage
I haven't met anyone such as the fundamentalists in Iraq, or in Al Qaeda.
But I have worked with some pretty tortured souls. In hypnotherapy work, I often do parts (ego-state) work with people, in which I talk to individual parts of the personality. The results can be extremely revealing.
I often find that there is a part at the core of the issue which is just as dark as any barbarian in the external world. What I have learned is that for each of us there is a dark side. We each have our negative memories, the things that brings us fear or anger. In a civilized world we manage it and keep it under control. And as we increase our spiritual growth, we even transcend the light/dark duality, so that the dark side and the light are truly seen as one. But the dark is there - always and inescapably, for each of us...
Usually, I have found in hypnotic work, that when the dark side is powerful, it is energized by pain of one sort or another. This can be real or percieved - to the dark side they are the same, it can't tell the difference. But darkness thrives in this environment. I have found in hypnosis work that the dark side is uaually quieted when it feels it's needs are met - safety and security, and self-warmth.
The biggest aspect is of the dark side is terror, and rage. Both have at their core, humiliation and shame. Anger + Shame = Rage. Fear + Shame = Terror. And the list goes on. My observation is that shame tends to be, in effect, a negative emotion amplifier.
So, while maybe not an immediate solution, perhaps a deeper solution to the problem is to find and counteract the drivers of the shame. I see this as poverty, an opressive social order of some sort, etc., but it's usually culturally specific.
Back to the problem of the "weeds", and what to do about them. IMHO, the key is for the right person to get to each enraged soul. For each enraged person, there is a soul in pain. And my sense is that each person - no matter how enraged - has somebody that can be a source of light to them. If that right person can throw water on the fires of violence, salve the pain, then maybe we can back away from the edge.
It is truly said that the dynamics of our inner world are reflected in our relationships in the outer world. I have seen this to be true in the dynamics of parts within the mind, as well as the relationships between people, and between nations. The scales are different, but the dynamics are the same. Anger + Shame = Rage.
23 Sep 2004 @ 02:32 by vibrani : Craig
Guilt is the denial of one's very own existence. Guilt always perpetuates limitation and separation; it keeps one from recognizing their own self empowerment and Source connection. Shame is very similar because it invalidates and makes one feel bad for being themselves...so they are walking around with that guilt/shame. Some people will turn that into rage, others will just self-destruct. One thing about people is that we will do whatever it is to feel good, and if people equate pain with a twisted notion of love, or pain meaning the lack of love, or pain that is from feeling dead already, you can get that rage which then abuses others. Still comes down to separation, invalidation of the self - and only WE can give validation to ourselves.
23 Sep 2004 @ 03:44 by nemue : Does Everyone Feel Shame?
This is a great discussion.
When people behave in a shameful way and yet do not voice regret and who gloat in the notoriety that their shameful act reaps upon them, are these people who are angered or people who jut enjoy what they do? Are these people who are totally desensitised to the pain of others? Could there just be people who are forever destined to be outcasts? Is this something we just have to accept as fact?
Craig, would it be fair to assume that the people you are helping is those who have asked for your help because they want to change? Do you ever come across people who just want to be what they are regardless of what they do? People whom just never show remorse?
23 Sep 2004 @ 04:35 by vibrani : Yes
I also asked Swan about this as she is a therapist and works with a very challenging community. She said that she sees people who have no conscience at all, and there's really no way to teach that to someone. I believe this is true - I look at some cold-blooded sociopaths and feel they have no conscience. (Scott Peterson). Some people just don't feel anything for anyone else. Then, think about these terrorists who murder people and do it thinking it is the greatest way to get to God and will be rewarded. Some terrorists, strapped with bombs, have changed their minds at the last minute - a few of them - those with a conscience and compassion. But, the brainwashing has gone on a long time so we are in for some years of hard times with this form of terrorism. This is what makes it so hard to break - these people are already dead and have nothing to lose.
23 Sep 2004 @ 14:04 by craiglang : Great Questions!!!
Do all people feel shame at some point? Good question. My bet is that (almost) everyone feels something like that at some time in life, about something. But that's a guess. For most of us, this is a minor to moderate part of life, and has a small and manageable influence. It is when it gets out of balance that things get "interesting"...
Nora, interesting note on people without conscience. The people I work with DO want to change. Yet within them, there is usually a part that does NOT want to change, or (presumably) they wouldn't have the problem. I see the "community of ego states" within the mind as a microcosm of the community of people, where within it are people who DO and people who DO NOT want to change.
I am not very familiar with the phenomenon of the sociopath who truly has no conscience. My understanding is that this is a very real phenomenon, but one that I am not familiar with. I am willing to bet however, that at their core, there is also some severe form of pain that drives them along that path. Whether this is shame, or something else, I certainly couldn't say.
This is probably the case where the theory I am describing breaks down.
23 Sep 2004 @ 19:00 by vibrani : on topic
"For the first time in our history, the Iraqi people can look forward to controlling our own destiny.
This would not have been possible without the help and sacrifices of this country and its coalition partners. I thank you again from the bottom of my heart.
And let me tell you that as we meet our greatest challenge by building a democratic future, we the people of the new Iraq will remember those who have stood by us.
As generous as you have been, we will stand with you, too. As stalwart as you have been, we will stand with you, too.
Neither tyranny nor terrorism has a place in our region or our world. And that is why we Iraqis will stand by you, America, in a war larger than either of our nations, the global battle to live in freedom.
God bless you and thank you." (Prime Minister Allawi)
23 Sep 2004 @ 19:15 by craiglang : So...
In the end, the split in opinion comes down to whether this is a "democracy transition" or an "occupation".
23 Sep 2004 @ 19:24 by vibrani : Freedom
is worth fight for, eh? The people, especially the women, of Afghanistan are very grateful for what the U.S. did. The people of Iraq don't want Saddam and they don't want occupation, either. This is a tough war and it will take time for changes to be made - and it was said so up-front at the start.
23 Sep 2004 @ 22:00 by nemue : Yes - Freedom Please...
I have read some gut wrenching stories about women in Iraq. How they were tortured and their children tortured and killed for doing nothing. The spirit and courage of some of the women who were gaoled is nothing short of humbling and I for one, (whilst the loss of life is difficult) still say thank you to those who have risked their lives to free these people. It also saddens me that all of the good things that have come out of this war are not promoted and that we appear to dwell on the negative side. The media has a lot to answer for sometimes and we also have a responsibility to demand balanced reporting. If we stopped buying newspapers and subscribing to on-line news the media barons would soon get the message.
24 Sep 2004 @ 01:47 by jmarc : a little c&p that's fairly relevant
ST. JOSEPH, United States (AFP) - US Vice President Richard Cheney said he was apalled by what he described as the "lack of respect" shown by Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry to the interim leader of Iraq Iyad Allawi.
Allawi met President George W. Bush at the White House earlier Thursday and addressed a rare joint session of the US Congress where he told lawmakers: "We are succeeding in Iraq."
Speaking in Columbus, Ohio, shortly after Allawi's speech, Kerry said the interim Iraqi premier was painting an unrealistically upbeat picture of the situation in his homeland.
Kerry's comments drew a sharp rebuke from the vice president just 40 days before Americans go to the polls on November 2 to cast their presidential ballots.
"I must say I was appalled at the complete lack of respect Senator Kerry showed for this man of courage when he rushed to hold a press conference and attack the prime minister, a man America must stand beside to defeat the terrorists," Cheney told an audience in St. Joseph, Missouri.
"John Kerry is trying to tear down all the good that has been accomplished, and his words are destructive to our effort in Iraq and in the global war on terror.
"As Prime Minister Allawi said in his speech, and I quote, 'When political leaders sound the siren of defeatism in the face of terrorism, it only encourages more violence,'" Cheney added.
Can this candidate Kerry say one positive thing about anything? Can he not at least state in a concise non ambivelant manner, exactly what his intentions are in the midlle east and on the war on terrorism? Can he not give any soul who is questioning Bush a reason to vote for Kerry other than that his name is not Bush? - jm
24 Sep 2004 @ 01:55 by scotty : Yes Jmarc
I'm afraid that's about the gist of it - to vote for Kerry means nothing more than his name isn't Bush ! It makes me quite worried for America - which seems to me to be divided right down the middle at the very time when they need to be more united than ever to find a solution that might work !
24 Sep 2004 @ 03:27 by craiglang : Division over the solution
The biggest division seems to be over just exactly what the problem is. I often get the sense that either side's solution is seen by the other side as the problem. And Scotty, you are right that the polarization is occurring right at the time when unity is most needed.
Unfortunately, given the sentiments of those in power and those in opposition, regardless of how the elections turn out, I see the divisions getting worse rather than better.
24 Sep 2004 @ 20:10 by spiritseek : too late?
Is it too late to get the real news out to the general public? How many would still vote for Bush if they knew what he really stands for and the lies told about this war? Just a few weeks to go until voting doesn't seem like enough time to wake up America does it. Mike Moore's movie still falls short of doing just that. Why can't these people wake up or do they believe Bush and company will keep their bargain and make them rich too? Sad most of the people voting for Bush wants money or just asleep at the wheel. Will we see the market finally crash where the banks fold under the pressure or will they produce another homeland terrorists attack? This has been on my mind for several months now,What Can We Really Do?
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