New Civilization News: Anti-Zionists and Antisemites    
 Anti-Zionists and Antisemites21 comments
1 Dec 2003 @ 11:53, by Bruce Kodish

Columnist Julie Burchill, bless her soul, is leaving her job at the British newspaper, the Guardian. She has gotten fed-up with the pronounced anti-Israel prejudice of that so-called 'liberal' publication.

As she put it in her Saturday, Nov. 29th article Good, bad and ugly : "...if there is one issue that has made me feel less loyal to my newspaper over the past year, it has been what I, as a non-Jew, perceive to be a quite striking bias against the state of Israel. Which, for all its faults, is the only country in that barren region that you or I, or any feminist, atheist, homosexual or trade unionist, could bear to live under...I don't swallow the modern liberal line that anti-Zionism is entirely different from anti-semitism; the first good, the other bad..."

Bravo to Julie Burchill! She has 'hit the nail on the head'. Anti-Zionists (whether Jewish or not--yes, there are Jewish anti-zionist/antisemites) apply an entirely different standard to the Jews in the state of Israel than they apply to any other nation-state in the world. So, if you think that the Jews do not have a legitimate right to a homeland (by the way until the mid-twentieth century, it was the Jews who were called "Palestinians") or that Israelis should be especially condemned for their efforts to defend themselves against decades of unremitting attackÉI'm sorry to say--by me, your beliefs quallify as antisemitic.

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1 Dec 2003 @ 16:54 by waalstraat : Bruce I agree with some of what you sai
I don't think criticizing Israel policies is necessarily anti-Semitic. But only if it is apparent the critic is trying to be balanced in his view and feels free and is just as willing to criticize the Palestinian Authority. Those who are absolutely anti-Zionist and anti Israel, and are absolutely mum about Palestinian terrorism and exploitation and intimidation of their own people aid and abet Anti-Semitism it becomes difficult to discriminate them from anti-Semites...when an anti-zionist becomes so extreme that they encourage a person who posted an anti-Semitic hate posting to be kept on this net...they disqualify themselves as critics who are objective because if someone is triggered by that posting violated a Jewish person they truly would have (symbolic) blood on their hands, and they have shown they are willing to accept that to further their distorted unbalanced views....I think people should ask themselves if someone encourages the perpetuation of Anti-Semitic literature for whatever reason, would it be reasonable to say that person is anti-Semitic even if that person believes he or she isn't....working in tandem with bigots to perpetuate their material makes one an accessories to bigotry...if you ask me...and they have become part of the problem rather that a person who wishes to solve the conflict.  

1 Dec 2003 @ 17:49 by AJ @ : Honest Reporting
HonestReporting has succeeded in shaking up the media and putting them on alert. They think twice, knowing they may be called to task for a particular article or headline.

In June 2002, major editorial changes occurred at CNN which greatly shift public perception of the Arab-Israel conflict in general, and the role of Palestinian suicide bombers in particular. HonestReporting was mentioned in The New York Times (July 1, 2002) as playing a role in this shift, and the Jerusalem Post reported that " readers sent up to 6,000 e-mails a day to CNN executives, effectively paralyzing their internal e-mail system."

In May 2002, HonestReporting launched a major petition drive calling on newspapers and broadcast media to label Palestinian suicide bombers as "terrorists." (The media favors terms like "militants," "activists," or even "freedom fighters.") The petition, online at, has registered over 50,000 signatures.

Tell a friend:  

3 Feb 2004 @ 21:57 by justin2 : Sympathy for the Devil

For most of my life I have had a very strong sympathy for the Jewish people,having been raised among many of them in Sydney, Australia, firstly for the treatment of them by many of the peoples of the world. They were generally treated in many ways the way we in Australia treat our Aboriginal people, that is, as second class citizens, in almost every country in which they tried to settle, and with few exceptions. The Nazi regime's treatment of the Jews in their turn gave every citizen on Earth reason to have great sympathy for them.

The unfortunate thing is that we none of us have learned from the lessons of the past, and we still treat other races of people, who happen to live within the same country borders as we do, with contempt and indignity. The Americans have discriminatory practices against the African people who they themselves stole from their own lands as slaves. They treat the South American folk as non-citizens, even while they live amongst them, and the American native peoples are repressed and treated with almost complete indifference.

Here In Australia, we treat our native folk with the same contempt that we hold for Asian migrants and migrants from the European countries. Aparthied policies may have been rescinded in Africa as far as the law is concerned, but in most African countries, the culture still exists, and tens of thousands of people have died at the hand of their neighbour because of it. It doesn't help to have a ruthless dictator at the helm of government, such as Idi Amin and Mugabe, but there are over one thousand dictators in the world at present, all of which continue and exacerbate the practices of discrimination.

It seems there are few countries indeed who do not carry on practices of racial discrimination, regardless of their stated laws about such things. The Phillipines, the Solomon Islands, Indonesia, Malaysia, Etc., are all countries who have come to grief over racial issues. China is no exception with her treatment of the native people of Tibet. Almost without exception, these countries will deny such practices, or at least, they will give some other excuse for the discrimination, such as proclaiming it to be religious unrest, or that the unrest was somehow caused by the suppressed people themselves.

Israel has to be the worst case of hippocracy in this century. They were placed in the area in which they dwell by the alliance, and have been fostered by America to become the fourth most powerful military nation on Earth. The trouble is that there was already a nation of people living in the area. And the Israelies don't want them there. So the Palestinians are a repressed people. The fact that this ancient people had their land deliberately and forcibly taken from them matters little to the Israelies. The fact that the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians has caused most of the Jewish people living in countries all around the world to distance themselves from the Israeli policy of repression also matters little to the Israelies. The lessons of the holocaust of Hitler's regime have been conveniently forgotten by the Israeli government, and they now visit the same treatments upon the native peoples of Palestine. These people have a history that goes back way before the Jews ever existed (Src: EB). But the British and the rest of the alliance took no notice of that little detail when they illegally gave Palestinian land to the Zionists.

Nobody who thinks clearly could deny the Palestinians the right to object about their treatment at the hands of the Israelies. At first, it was a fight that was simply demonstrative, that is, they held peaceful rallies. They stated their objections in the peaceful ways of civilised people. But their repression grew, and grew, until a movement evolved that was a little more millitant. But by the time that happened, and they had enough arms to escalate their struggle, not for supremacy, but simply for acceptance and equal civil rights, Israel had more powerful weapons, being funded mainly by America, Britain and France.

While the Israeli weaponry was constantly restocked by the US, Brittain and France, the weaponry of the Palestinian movements quickly depleted. In fact they were soon reduced to throwing sticks and stones, while the Israelies responded with tanks and helicopters, and bigger and better guns. The Palestinians have been so repressed that they are forced to reply to the Holocaust being visited on their people with their own bodies, the suicide bombers have become a bane for Israel.
The "fence" that the Israelies are building is yet another way that they have discovered by which they can illegally take away from these repressed people. Taking into consideration the attitudes of all other governments of the world, who should be rising up in absolute indignation, but instead, are saying nothing, the Palestinians must be feeling that they haven't a friend in the world. What does it say about a people who would move into an area and then take away all the rights of the native folk, and then to add to the indignity, elect a known war criminal to ensure that they had no way of regaining their rights. Sharon's "fence' is clearly a planned land grab, taking land that the Palestinians need for their very existence. Sharon calls them terrorists! But who is the real terrorist here? It was Benin who blew up the Hotel David, not a Palestinian. And what sort of person would use a tank to kill a ten year old child for throwing a stone at them? What sort of person would use tanks and buldozers to demolish the homes of "Suspected" suicide bomber's families?

The West, all of it, Australia, Britain, Europe and America amongst others, should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves for standing by and letting this thing happen to this ancient people. Our guilt is deepened by our complicity in the crimes carried out by Sharon and the Israelies by the supply of arms and money, while at the same time, giving nothing in the way of military aid to the Palestinians. In view of all this, I have absolutely no sympathy for the Israelies whatsoever. The survivors of the German Holocaust have begun to use the same tactics on a people undeserving of such treatment. The Jews of the world hold a considerable political power in world affairs, and while they have expressed the fact that they have distanced themselves from Sharon's antics, they have done nothing about it. They of all people should be crying out in anger about such treatment by some of their people against any other people. I am deeply saddened by the apathy of the Jewish people, who have always held a place in my heart. Please speak out against those few Zionists who constantly confound all efforts towards peace by peoples from all nations. Sharon and his cohorts are not doing you any favours by their persecution of the Palestinians.
Quotation, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in an interview in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz:

"I am working on the assumption that in the future there will be no Jews in Gaza."

All very well and certainly a step in the right direction. But Sharon has said these sorts of things before, and never followed up with action. I'm wondering just when he is going to do something instesd of simply talking about it.

Maybe this is just aanother statement meant to placate the West.  

5 Feb 2004 @ 16:28 by Bruce Kodish @ : Reply to Justin
Justin, despite your demure statement of sympathy for the Jews, I repeat:

If you think that the Jews do not have a legitimate right to a homeland (by the way until the mid-twentieth century, it was the Jews who were called "Palestinians") or that Israelis should be especially condemned for their efforts to defend themselves against decades of unremitting attackÉI'm sorry to say--by me, your beliefs quallify as antisemitic.  

5 Feb 2004 @ 18:14 by vibrani : Justin
A knowledge of history of the Middle East will teach you a lot about who was really on the land called Israel, who developed the country and who lives there now. Do you have a problem accepting Israel's right to exist? It's not all Israel's responsibility to take care of the Arabs who chose to join a group with a false pretense and name, Palestinians, and spend their lives trying to destroy Israel and the Jews. If you want to know the cause of the problem - it is Arafat. Please see my log's newest entry as it may shed some light on the situation for you - Nintations and Cosmic Winks is the name of my log. The only thing that will stop this madness is getting rid of Arafat, creating a new government, and reeducating the Arabs. This will take generations, thanks to that insane murderer Arafat.

I have to correct a few things in your statement about other peoples, too. In America there is little bias against Native Americans. No question about the atrocities that existed 100-200 years ago, but that was then. The one thing a person can question is that they and adoptees are wards of the state, so they have a special relationship with our government, for good and bad. They do have benefits from this and they still do have their own tribal police and government, which is not subject to outside rules for many things. This is to their benefit and non-Indians could call racism on that preferential treatment, alone. That they don't all rise to their abilities is largely their own doing, playing victim and miserable. Those who want to make a life for themselves, do so - just like everybody else.

Next, African Americans. It was the Muslims who were responsible for making them slaves and selling them in Africa and then to new America. Muslims STILL DO THIS TODAY! Yes, there were white Americans who kept slaves, but that died out some time ago, I'm sure you know. There are a few places in America where there are prejudices - white supremicists, like neo-Nazis, but that's a minority. Native Americans, African Americans, like individuals from some other groups, who do not wish to be self-responsible and successful in their own lives play the victim game, the race card because they play upon past guilt.

What happened in Australia and also New Zealand against the native people there was also horrific, and while things are changing there is a lot more to do until there is equality and respect.

Lastly, if you look around the globe, what do you see? Extremist factions of Islam using violence, terror, murder in attempts to take over country after country. Wake up.  

15 Feb 2004 @ 20:52 by justin2 : Reply to Bruce Kodish and ninharsag :
Very clinical. Perhaps your view of history could do with a different point of reference. But how can one dare to argue about light with the blind. You bumped into a few of my trees. Unfortunate that you failed to perceive the forest.

Royal Primrose Atlas of British Empire - circa 1935.
There is very little evidence of the existence of the state of Palestine. Unless we look in overlooked places. (Pre WW-2)

The seeds of contention are adequately explained in: "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism." By Max Weber, Peter Baehr, Gordon C. Wells.....

Christianity has its history steeped in blood, slavery and all. We didn't call it terrorism then, we called it many names, such as Colonization, Holy Wars, etc.
Slave traders operated ships out of Spain, Holland, Britain, Portugal and America.
History has a longer memory than modern writings.  

16 Feb 2004 @ 14:05 by bkodish : AntiSemitic Nonsense
Justin, if you believe the stuff that you say--you are deluding yourself.

There never has existed an independent nation-state called "Palestine."

The Palestinian Mandate of the British Empire referred to the region called "Palestine" (originally called such by Roman conquerers who wanted to expunge the memory of Jewish sovreignty there.) Subsequently, it was the Jews who were referred to as Palestinians in Europe..

This region was formally divided up into administrative districts of the Ottoman Empire. The British took over the territory under accepted international agreements after the defeat and fall of the Ottoman Empire after WWI.

Although the people who are now referred to by most people as "Palestinians" do have some national identity as such now (developed mostly over the last thirty years), this identity is mostly negative, i.e., based on virulent antisemitism (hatred of Jews). It is mainly for this reason that they do not have their own state and quite possibly never will.

You Justin, distort history in such a way that I can only call antisemitic, however you might reject that designation.  

16 Feb 2004 @ 14:23 by scotty : And if it turns out that
the Jewish nation has no more historical right to the land of Israel than the Palestinien people what happens then ? Do you think they could then live in peace together - or has hate become more important than anything ?
There are several reasons to believe that 'history' seems to depend on who was writing it ........{}  

16 Feb 2004 @ 14:50 by vibrani : The fact is
that the Jews DO have a historial right to the land, Scotty. You keep fighting this fact, why, I don't know. Why is it that people cannot accept THIS?! Why do they hate the Jews, and refuse to live in peace with the Jews? You keep demanding the Jews make concessions to please everybody else! Will the Jews ever do something (besides dying off) that will finally satisfy you, and all others who exhibit prejudices against Jews? Enough of this bullshit, Scotty. Would you do the same to your Scots people?  

16 Feb 2004 @ 15:32 by scotty : Since when did asking a question
make someone a jew hater Nora - that's too absurd !
I prefer to question something than just swallow it because someone said so !
I used to believe the Bible when I was younger - then I began to 'think' !
I used to believe that women were inferior - then I began to think!
I used to believe a lot of things that simply weren't true !
I didn't say that the Israelies did not have a right to the land historically - I simply questioned it ! There's a big difference.

You remind me of I guy I used to date when I was a young lass - he got upset when I wouldn't sleep with him (I didn't know I was gay in those early days) anyway - one evening he got so mad he said that I wouldn't sleep with him 'cos I didn't like blacks ! (he was an indian) I was speechless - firstly because it was the most inverted bigotry that I'd ever heard ! secondly because the guy really believed that I'd prove I wasn't a biggot by sleeping with him !
Your inverted racism sucks just as much today as his did all those years ago !

Did you read the link Nora - or did you simply decide that it wasn't what you wanted to hear ? It would seem that there is no archealogical 'proof' to the historical claim - I think that's more of a 'fact' than anything that is written in any of the religious books.
If you really believe I hate Jews - well Nora I'm sorry - but that's Your problem not mine !
Furthermore - you didn't answer the question ! That's ok too !  

16 Feb 2004 @ 16:31 by vibrani : Scotty
I did not say YOU were a Jew-hater by asking a question. The question you asked is what continues to be, however, a topic common among those who do not accept Israel's existence.

May I refer you to past conversations between us, on Bernie's log, on my log, and in chat rooms where you repeated the same questions and largely ignored the answers and questions posed to you? You avoid them. YES, there is TONS of archaeological proof that I have also suppled for you, but people who refuse to be open to it and read sources that are filled with lies will NEVER learn or understand, Scotty. They will go around and around in circles with these questions that are pointless and b.s. because such people do not know the facts.  

16 Feb 2004 @ 16:44 by scotty : Facts !!
the facts are - people are dying - hate has stolen all reason !  

16 Feb 2004 @ 16:56 by vibrani : Would you say
you can use the same comparison with Native Americans, Scotty? Hmmm...let's see, not much in the way of written history, therefore according to your reasoning the Native Americans couldn't have had any historical claim to the U.S. and shouldn't be here, hunh?

The hate you speak of comes from those NOT accepting Israel or the Jews. Had they accepted the Jews, there would be no need for this talk, no need for wars, no need for the creation of these new "Palestinians."

People are dying all over the world, Scotty, and for many other reasons. Maybe you can better use your energies for those reasons? Like A.I.D.S., starvation, poisoned water.  

16 Feb 2004 @ 17:06 by vibrani : And, oh yes,
people are also dying from Islamic suicide murderers in other countries. People are also dying from natural causes....we will all die one day. Can't prevent that, Scotty, but you CAN changed education and get rid of hatred and lies.  

16 Feb 2004 @ 17:26 by scotty : Native Americans
have archeological proof Nora - and what has happened to them today is shameful - just like what happened in Australia to the Aborigonal people - and even here in Guadeloupe - the Arawak Indian is extinct - gone - like the Dodo bird ! But there is archeological proof that they were here first !

Yes education is the answer of course it is !
So is patience tolerance respect and reason !

Had they accepted each other THEN there would be no need for this talk, no need for wars !

re my energies - I do my best Nora !  

16 Feb 2004 @ 17:43 by Bruce @ : Historical Rights
There are various claims of historical rights with longer and shorter time-frames and different weightings of rights depending on who does the evaluating.

I claim that the Jewish nation and the Jewish state of Israel has at least much historical right to exist as any nation on the planet.

The main reason there is no peace is that many if not most Arabs and Arab states refuse to accept the right of existence of the state of Israel.

The problem is exacerbated by many onlookers willingness to consider Israel's right to exist at all open to question as well.

Do you accept Israel's right to exist, Scotty?

This has very little to do with controversies about Biblical history and yes, Scotty very much to do with hate, ignorance and ideology.

The Arab world has stewed itself in Jew-Hate for at least a century and the Palestinian Authority of Arafat has distilled the concentrated essence of this hatred into a truly toxic culture that is poisoning its young people.

Israeli concessions over the last decade have become swallowed in a black hole of historical forgetfulness. The Palestinian Authorities incitement and its targeting of the weak and innocent, which defines its terrorist war against the Jews is supported by surrounding Arab states and continues as it has since at least a decade ago. Ignorant "peace-Loving" people shake their heads and wonder why can't they all just get along.

Even some Jews in Israel and around the world remain among the ignorant--entranced by a peace-at-any-price ideology (the error of Oslo).

However, when it comes down to it don't expect most Israeli's and their supporters to willingly assent to the continuing slaughter of Jews. I have picked up a rifle before in defense of my Jewish brother and sisters (and those Arabs and others willing to stand by Israel) and I'm willing to do so again.

If the fact that Jews willing to fight for their existence pisses people off--Tough!  

16 Feb 2004 @ 17:58 by vibrani : Scotty
I cannot accept that comparison of hatred between the Jews and Arabs. The Jews accepted the Arabs, in fact made them part of their government. The hatred came from the Arabs, many of whom were all too happy to make money off of the Jews and sell at a large price whatever land they had in Israel to the Jews because the land meant so little to the Arabs!

In the Americas there were Europeans, too, Scotty. Kennewick Man is one such proof of that (and the Native people have been trying to cover that up because they want to be the only people they consider Native), but there is some archaeological evidence of indigenous people (ruins, rock paintings) but not much written as documentation since most was passed on verbally. There is proof of non-Natives in America thousands of years ago - the Vikings, the Celts! Runes! So how do you REALLY know who was here first?

Yes, Bruce, agreed, that Jews aren't going to be sitting ducks any longer does piss off people. So what.

POWELL BLAME - blame for the current Middle East impasse lies squarely with PA Chairman Yasser Arafat, US Secretary of State Colin Powell told Congress on Thursday, accusing the veteran PLO leader of doing nothing to combat terror. "I put the blame squarely on Chairman Arafat,” Powell told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee “for his unwillingness to speak out,” or to “take action against those organizations that he knows is committing those acts." Identifying the problem at the heart of the conflict, Powell noted that it hasn’t changed throughout his tenure of office. “And that is terrorism, terrorism that still emanates from Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and other organizations that are not interested in peace, not interested in a state for the Palestinian people. They're interested in the destruction of Israel," he added.


16 Feb 2004 @ 20:33 by justin2 : ninharsag and Bruce:
We "saved their heathen souls" from their "pagan religions". We taught them "the King's English". We clothed them "properly"

Many nations of Native Americans lost their history when white man arrived. Their language, oral history, traditions and folklore forgotten forever in the mists of time. Ancestoral lands stolen away, many driven in plodding death marches across the western desert.

What did we give them in return?

drug abuse

We saved their heathen souls, and destroyed their past and future.

In modern America, the remaining nations fight in the streets and courtrooms for recognition. The elders pass on, taking with them what remains of their peoples' history. Already many languages have been lost for all time, as no one now living can still remember how to speak them.

If the nations rose up in violence, would they be terrorists or freedom fighters? Do they not have a right to defend what remains of their kind?

Religion is the greatest evil ever created by man. In religion's name, one can justify any action, no matter how vile, as the will of deity.

Consider the Burning Times in Europe and America, the Cherokee Removal,the Apache Trail of Tears, The Crusades, the Inquisition.
Religion, or more specifically the alleged will of deity, is the root of all horrors committed by man. If you don't believe me, consider the manifestos of the Al Quieda, The PLO, Al Asqa Martyrs Brigade, etc.

Religion is the cause of much, if not all, of human misery. Thinking back on human history, it is clear that most of the blood that has been shed was in the name of "the aleged will of the deity", or at least an ideology that grew from it. It was an arrogance of religious superiority that allowed races to think of themselves as superior to other races, so allowing for slavery to be embraced and for other races to be utterly destroyed.

Here in Oz we have a conflict now occurring with the remnants of similar treatment of our own native folk. We stole their lands, their culture, brought them disease and degradation and taught them the "propper" way to conduct their lives. Their elders die out leaving a devastated youth with no past and no future. We made victims of them and then we point to them and say, "look how they love playing the role of the victim". Nero would have been proud of us.

"In modern America, the remaining nations fight in the streets and courtrooms for recognition. The elders pass on, taking with them what remains of their peoples' history. Already many languages have been lost for all time, as no one now living can still remember how to speak them."

We have it no different here in Australia, in exactly the same way. The Aboriginee has the highest pro-rata prison population. It is like capturing a wild eagle and locking him in a small cage. He doesn't understand it and he has no hope for a future. If he dies we say, "he just wasn't man enough to take it". And how can a people to whom the battles fought in courtrooms is relatively new, understand and defeat the plethora of lawyers and a legal system hundreds of years in the making. They don't have the culture, the ruthlessness and the ideology to defeat our ways. They suffer in limbo.

"If the nations rose up in violence, would they be terrorists or freedom fighters? Do they not have a right to defend what remains of their kind?"

Of course we all know the answer to that. Politicians, and therefore those that they represent, would brand them as terrorists, simply because we would have to do as we have always done. We would blame them for their "heathenness", for their "uncivillized" natures and of course, because they would have virtually no weapons, for their willingness to die in their efforts to take out as many of us as they were able with whatever bombs they could manufacture. We would certainly not look for the reasons within our own ranks, after all, are we not superior?

It is not any imagined "Great Shaitan" or Satan with which those such as al Quieda, The PLO, al Asqa Martyrs Brigade, etc. have to struggle. Weber et al in "The Protestant Ethic and The Spirit of Capitalism", and Engles' 'Dissertation on Private Property Laws" does indeed hold the truth about the identity of this "Great Shaitan". It is not Christianity, and it is not Modernism with which they struggle, it is the onward march of the Western Empire that continues to destroy the cultures and the languages of the down-trodden. It is the Great Lie that we live, the hippocracy that spreads the seeds of discontent. It is the arrogance of the Spirit of Industrial Capitalism, based on religious "ethics", that takes away the souls of the have-nots and leaves them with even less.

Weber and Engels both said it well, It is Religious hippocratic superiority that reduces man to the levels of greed and selfishness. This is probably why Communism has always banned religion in all its forms. It is why The West has always feared an loathed the Communist ethic.

Somewhere down the line, something went horribly wrong. As a people (and I mean mankind, not any specific country) we failed in our greatest responsibility: to love our fellow man as our brother.

I have no argument with Jews, or with Zionists either for that matter. But if you chose to think that I do then that is your concern. I also have no argument with the Arabs, while you most certainly do. I however, am not the one who must judge you for that, that is also your concern. I have enough about which I must judge myself to concern myself with the faults and motivations of others.

Sooner or later the cream will float to the top, let's hope it happens before the milk turns sour.


16 Feb 2004 @ 21:01 by vibrani : Justin
I got my MA Degree in American Indian Studies and wrote a book and did teach classes on Native American culture and spirituality and history, (not bragging about this but being factual), so thanks for your explanation of what happened in America to the indigenous peoples but I know quite a bit about it.

I disagree with your assumption or summation that the problem with Muslim nations is solely due to the West destroying various cultures. If that was the case, why then do many of these nations do everything possible to imitate us, to have our products, to incorporate English into their languages? They have our corporations in their countries helping their income. Yes, the West has done its share of destruction, but I just don't happen to see this as the cause of terrorism and murder. I see the cause as jealousy and the inability to change, and control. It is out of balance thinking, the imbalance caused by the lack of respecting the female in a culture, the balance of male/female, the ability to advance in certain areas and yet be spiritual with responsibility, and the inability to have compassion for human beings no matter their religion, gender or nation or birth or residence. Still, there are countless people trying to get into America as the land where their dreams might come true, and millions who have come here and are grateful.  

17 Feb 2004 @ 00:28 by justin2 : Bruce and ninharsag :
In deference to your obviously superior knowledge, I'm going to bow out of this discussion. However, I will leave you with this thought: My references to historical events in no way indicate my hatred of that which remains. I don't recall raferencing Marx. I least of all could be understood as "dogmatic". I don't hat capitalism, merely observe and comment upon its effects. I am well aware that we of the west have brought many benefits to other cultures, but at the same time we doggedly resisted any possibility of incorporation of their ways on ours. As you insist in compartmentalising the world into Christians, Jews, Indians and Nihilists etc, then expect others to comment upon your observations and do try not to psychoanalyze those others, you are definitely way off the mark. Your very good health! R. Justin Williams Q.B.E.  

17 Feb 2004 @ 01:24 by vibrani : okey

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