|New Civilization News: Continuing Chandler/AntWeb Discussion|
37 comments9 Dec 2003 @ 13:29 by ming : E-mail
One thought .. As Chandler natively handles e-mail, including, of course, being able to view and HTML e-mail message, it seems like if a webpage can just be saved as an e-mail message within Chandler's storage space, it is then subject to being moved around and categorized as any other Chandler item. That doesn't give all the same advantages as annotating the webpage in real time, but it is one possibility. Saving a webpage in e-mail format is not very hard.
9 Dec 2003 @ 13:30 by ming : Chandler controls
Do you have any idea of how Chandler's categorization interface actually looks? I mean, is it a full screen thing, or something that is done in a line or two on a screen? Would it at all be possible to implement it in html, or does it require real-time database access? Anyway, let me go and look for myself, rather than just asking you ...
9 Dec 2003 @ 13:58 by ming : Browser
Looking over the Chandler very open architecture in a bit more detail ... I think there is NO way that nobody will think of creating an HTML viewer within chandler, and a data type for storing HTML pages. I think several people will do that, and you'd be able to use any of the available engines, including both Mozilla's and IEs. It is just too tempting, and doesn't seem terribly hard, at least for somebody who would even think of embedding an HTML engine into anything. So, I think you could almost assume that somebody will do that, and maybe concentrate on on how chandler would relate to your plans of more global sharing and aggregation. I.e. get the middleware engine right, and create a parcel that interfaces it with chandler. Solve your core engine and I think that hooking things up will be much less of a problem than it might seem.
9 Dec 2003 @ 16:25 by Roger Eaton @188.8.131.52 : re: Browser
For sure there will be an html viewer in Chandler, but if you click a link on a viewed page, I believe you will start up your preferred browser instead of seeing the target page within Chandler. I'd love to be wrong on this. Do you think I might be? I don't see how having just a viewer without browser capabilities will do the job.
I'll be curious to know what you find something about Chandler categorization.
9 Dec 2003 @ 17:22 by ming : Viewer
What I mean is that 'viewer' is sort of a specialized word in their vocabulary. Which is something that one can create as a parcel that interacts with data, and hook into the rest of it, the way I understand it. And one can create one's own data types as well. And it can have whatever functionality one wants it to have. So it doesn't have to be just a literal viewer. So, my point is that since it is so open for expansion, somebody HAS to make what is essentially a web browser for it, which to Chandler just looks like another parcel that implements a 'viewer' and another data structure. And which then can be embedded into Chandler documents, just like they have in mind with e-mail inboxes and buttons and pictures and so forth.
"Examples of modules include the "viewer parcel," an area of the desktop user-interface which can view various kinds of items, for example, the calendar view for viewing calendar event items, an email view for viewing email items, a contacts view for viewing contact items, or a generic table view that can view items of any type. If you have some experience programming Python, we hope it would be relatively easy to add a new kind of data, for example your music collection including information about each song and write a music viewer that you could use to search and view your music.
Parcels can be used at a many different levels. They might include an API for filtering email that can be used for spam filtering, an API for plugging in new protocols used to enhance or improve communication, an API for extending the search capabilities in each view, or even an API to attach a script to a button in the user-interface."
10 Dec 2003 @ 14:51 by Roger Eaton @184.108.40.206 : an opportunity here?
The opinion of the [Design] list is divided on the embedded browswer concept. Here is a message that says "no" to embedded browser and "yes" to embedded html rendering machine.
Personally I like the embedded browser option, but it throws me that Mitch Kapor thinks it is not a good idea. Is politics entering into the decision here? I doubt it. Is it because the embedded browser will bulk up Chandler too much? Kapor's stated reason was that it would be hard to implement the UI, yet I don't quite see why it would be that hard.
For now, I will go ahead with familiarizing myself with Python and Chandler and writing the InterMix middleware piece. Perhaps someone else will implement the embedded browser, as you suggest. If not, then implementing one myself might be just the ticket to introduce InterMix to the Chandler crowd.
10 Dec 2003 @ 15:32 by ming : Kapor
Sounded to me like it just wasn't included in their project plan, and he didn't think it would be a complete no-brainer, so therefore it wouldn't be something they would plan to do.
10 Dec 2003 @ 23:14 by Roger Eaton @220.127.116.11 : re: Kapor
> Sounded to me like it just wasn't included in their project plan, and he didn't think it would
> be a complete no-brainer, so therefore it wouldn't be something they would plan to do.
Sensible fellow, ming!
15 Dec 2003 @ 22:57 by darryl kanouse @18.104.22.168 : Win/IE Annotation Client
Everything I understand about the ambitions of InterMix and/or the Annotated Web project tells me that you are aiming for the involvement of the masses (voice of humanity and all). Assuming you dont have the resources to engage in parallel development, why not focus on addressing the computing environment for 95% of internet enabled humanity instead of the insular world of intellectual property idealists and anti-Bills? (I am an intellectual property idealist y no me gusto el jefe but I am also a pragmatist about technology.)
Consider how easy it is to rub your hands, twist your mustache and make a few bucks selling user demographics collected with Trojan Freeware. But if you use your super powers for good instead of evil, you can turn that Spyware application (the one that tracks Internet usage and sends it to the Empire of Porn) into an Annotated Web application (one that tracks Internet usage and sends it to the Collective Messaging System). Digital jujitsu, ala Saul Alinsky.
The technology is really simple; using the WinINet API any client (C++/VB6) can tap into the Windows URL Cache ([link]) Slap on a user interface, an XML engine, and a SOAP wrapper and voila: a light-weight annotation client that any other standards compliant open architecture application can integrate with (and users dont have to change their browsing habits!)
I have all kinds of client code (VB and C++), including all the heavy-lifting functions for the WinINet API and XML DOM, which I will happily share with anyone who sends me an email.
I apologize if this opinion has already been discussed and dismissed, Im new here.
17 Dec 2003 @ 10:11 by Roger Eaton @22.214.171.124 : re: Win/IE Annotation Client
Looks like the user would have to have the Annotation Client open in one window and the IE browser in another. Is that right, Darryl? I'm interested and will communicate by email. There's more than one way to make a cup of espresso. Hmmm...this idea also rather validates ming's comments that I should concentrate on InterMix as middleware. Saul Alinsky! Brings back memories of my SDS days. Digital jujitsu -- always an appealing idea.
19 Dec 2003 @ 14:34 by ming : Right
So, there are companies that gather huge amounts of data about patterns of browsing for their own use, and to sell it. Like double-click. So, a core idea here might simply be to make something similar or better available for the common good, while adding ways for users to add their metadata (ratings, categorization) to it. And, yes, it seems like the central piece for you would be the actual engine that stores it and shares it in a sensible way, more than it would be the exact input methods. There will be lots of smart people who might offer good stuff like the above, or link it up to one browser or another. So the main thing is that they'll have something to pass it on to.
20 Feb 2004 @ 14:33 by Josef @126.96.36.199 : Del.icio.us
Could this social bookmarking service have any relevance to what is being discussed? I realize it doesn't fit into the 'middleware' concept, but perhaps it could be yielding some unexpected solutions for a different tack on annotating the web.
22 Feb 2004 @ 19:54 by Roger Eaton @188.8.131.52 : delicioso
Neat! I logged in and posted the New Heavenarticle. del.icio.us is doing well, I expect in part because it has a simple api. Easier said than done, but the api must be simple if InterMix is going to take off.
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